This transcript has been redacted in accordance with Digital Transformation Agency guidelines.
PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: Minister, welcome to the program.
PENNY WONG, FOREIGN MINISTER: Good to be with you.
KARVELAS: There is a disagreement between you and the Coalition on Australia's role in a peacekeeping mission in Ukraine. Peter Dutton has said today that Australia shouldn't be out ahead of where the Europeans are, in relation to a border presence with Russia, where there's no United States assurance about providing an overlay. If there is no US security guarantee, would you put boots on the ground?
FOREIGN MINISTER: Look, there's a lot of hypotheticals in that and a lot of ifs. What I would say is what the Prime Minister said, which is, first, we have an interest in supporting Ukraine. We know that Russia's war is illegal and immoral. We know that it's a breach of the UN charter and we know that international law protects all of us. So we have an interest.
The second point the Prime Minister has made is if there's a request made, we would consider it. That's a very sensible position and it's a position, I find it interesting, that Peter Dutton, who always seems to, where he has a choice, back Australia or pick a political fight, he always chooses picking the political fight.
KARVELAS: Are there any boundaries to what we would say yes to, though?
FOREIGN MINISTER: We would, if a request were made, we would consider it. That's a very sensible position. And again, what I'd say is, Mr Dutton, he always wants a fight. ...
KARVELAS: I just want to move to other issue if we can, on Israel. British Foreign Secretary David Lammy accused Israel of breaking international law before Downing Street then qualified his comments, saying it was only at risk of doing so. Do you think Israel is breaking international law?
FOREIGN MINISTER: Well, first I want to say, PK, Australians are rightly distressed by the ceasefire not holding. Australians are rightly distressed and horrified by the loss of life that we are seeing, including of children. We continue to urge the ceasefire to be observed. We continue to say Hamas should release hostages, we continue to say international humanitarian assistance should flow. And of course, I have consistently - the Government has consistently - urged all parties, including Israel, as a democracy, to comply with international law, including international humanitarian law.
KARVELAS: Does it seem that they are complying with international law, as you see it?
FOREIGN MINISTER: Look, there are different roles here. We are not courts and tribunals and some of those questions go to those issues. But I think it is appropriate for governments to continue to talk about what international law, international humanitarian law means, it means a range of protections for civilians. We should continue to urge all parties, including Israel, to do that. And it's regrettable that we've never seen Mr Dutton talk about those obligations or the importance of international humanitarian law. As I said, we want the ceasefire to hold. We want hostages returned. We want humanitarian aid to flow.
KARVELAS: Who is it responsible for it not holding?
FOREIGN MINISTER: There's no doubt that Hamas is a terrorist organisation. Hamas engaged in atrocities on October 7. We know that Hamas is still holding hostages and they should return those hostages. What I would say, again, I think all Australians have been, many Australians have been distressed by what we have seen. And I think all of us want to try to ensure we don't bring the conflict here, we continue to try and turn the temperature down, not up, and that certainly is the approach the Government is taking.
KARVELAS: Opposition leader Peter Dutton has - he's obviously given a significant speech today, which is why we're talking about some of the things he said - he said one of his first acts would be to call Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and affirm Australia's traditional support for Israel. What is your response to that?
FOREIGN MINISTER: Well, first I think there was one thing Peter Dutton said which I agreed with - which is that past behaviour is a good predictor of future behaviour, and what it confirms is that Peter Dutton, the man who made fun of the Pacific, who talked about the drums of war, who left a vacuum in the Pacific for others to fill, that he remains lost in our region, where Australia's interests lie. Most of our, so many of our interests lie in our region. ... This a man as Opposition Leader, I don't think he has visited one Pacific Island country or one Southeast Asian country. What does that tell you about his priorities.
KARVELAS: That's an interesting point you made. He referred today to the US decision to cut aid to the Pacific. He said it was detrimental to the region's collective interests and that Australia should advocate for some of that funding to be restored. And that he would do that if he was in power. Have you already done that?
FOREIGN MINISTER: Can I just say, this is from a bloke who cut aid from the Pacific when he was in government. Can everyone just remember that? He wants us to take him seriously on this now, when he was part of a government that presided over the largest reduction in aid that we've seen, left a vacuum for others to fill, and ensured that Australia's place or position in the Pacific, as the partner of choice, was lost. I mean, that's Peter Dutton's legacy on the Pacific. And now he hasn't even been there as Opposition Leader. I have already been upfront that I have asked my department to do an assessment of where the USAID, where a reduction in USAID might be most problematic. I have already asked them to look at this. Of course, we engage with countries of the region and advocate for the region wherever we can. Let's not take Peter Dutton too seriously because he's part of the government that cut aid, and you know what else? He has already said he would cut foreign aid. I really don't think he should be taken seriously on this.
KARVELAS: It is correct that they cut foreign aid, absolutely.
FOREIGN MINISTER: Thank you.
KARVELAS: Well, it's a fact, right? There was a cut to foreign aid.
FOREIGN MINISTER: Correct.
KARVELAS: But on the advocacy of your Government, you say you have asked the Department to do an assessment, once that assessment is done and you look at the impact, is it about Australia stepping up with more aid? Or will you be saying to the US, they need to restore it, making the case?
FOREIGN MINISTER: Look, obviously we'll continue to engage with the US in our region. As we always do. Part what if we do with the United States is in relation to the Pacific. Because obviously we have been an ally who is most closely engaged with the Pacific because of who we are, part of the Pacific family, part of the Pacific Islands Forum, of course we'll continue to do that.
... This is a bloke who made a joke about climate change, remember, joked about water lapping at the door, something I still hear when I visit the Pacific. He hasn't visited. He continues to leave on the table, leave on the chopping block, aid cuts. ...
KARVELAS: Even UK Labour has cut aid and boosted defence. Is that a strategy or a way forward that you disagree with, for our own country?
FOREIGN MINISTER: Look, we have worked hard to steadily increase aid from a very low, from a very low level. And even if you look at what the UK has done, in terms of a proportion of what is called gross national income, in terms of a proportion of that, actually we're still below the reduced amount that the UK has done. I think they're at 0.3, we're at about 0.18. So I make the point - yes we have gradually sought to increase it - the reduction in the United Kingdom's contribution to aid still leaves them at a higher level than Australia. Now obviously in fiscal circumstances, we've had to make decisions about growing that aid budget slowly and steadily, we'll do that. There's one leader, one man, who wants to reduce aid funding and that's Mr Dutton.
KARVELAS: OK.
FOREIGN MINISTER: We've seen this movie before and we know what happened. Left a vacuum for others to fill.
KARVELAS: The other thing that he said in terms of foreign affairs today is that he'll seek a meeting with Donald Trump in the early days of a Coalition government. He's obviously criticised your side of politics for previous comments made about Trump, for allowing us to be vulnerable. Just in terms of what the Prime Minister and your Administration, if I can call it that, would do, if you were to be re-elected, will Anthony Albanese go to Washington as his first move? If he wins the election?
FOREIGN MINISTER: Well, I tell you what we'll continue to do, and that's to stand up for and advocate for Australia's interests. Including, making it clear to American pharmaceutical companies and that lobby group, that Australia's PBS is not up for grabs, not up for negotiation, which is what Labor had to do when the Liberals put in place, or negotiated the US free trade agreement, it was the Labor Party in opposition that had to protect the PBS.
I would say this about Mr Dutton; he says he would have got a deal, no question. Australians need to ask, what would he be prepared to give away to get that deal? What would he be prepared to give away? Would he be prepared to give away PBS funding? Would he be prepared to give away things which are core to who we are? ...
KARVELAS: They've said no on the PBS so far. That's been their position.
FOREIGN MINISTER: So far.
KARVELAS: Like today, that's what he had to say. I just want to ask you, he also commented on the Chinese navel flotilla. I want to read the quote to you. he said, "It was the weakest most limp wristed response you would see from a leader." This is in relation to Anthony Albanese. "And frankly, none of these leaders, Liberal or Labor, would have provided the response the Prime Minister did." What did you make of the language?
FOREIGN MINISTER: Well, first, we made very clear our views to the Chinese and publicly. We were very upfront about that. Defence put a number of statements out, the Minister for Defence and the Prime Minister and I all gave very public comments about it. And I raised directly with Foreign Minister Wang Yi our concerns about the lack of adequate notice.
But in terms of Mr Dutton's choice of language, what I would say is this is a bloke who opposed marriage equality, so it's an unsurprising use of language from him.
KARVELAS: The actual term has a historical connotation. Do you think it's offensive language?
FOREIGN MINISTER: Well, this is a bloke who opposed marriage equality. So I think people can draw their own conclusions about the term he used.
KARVELAS: Penny Wong, many thanks for joining us. I know you're a very busy woman. Thank you for your time.
FOREIGN MINISTER: Good to speak with you.
