Subjects: Remote Jobs and Economic Development Program, Northern Territory prisons, Welcome to Country.
ADAM STEER, HOST: As I said, the battleground is definitely heating up for the federal election. Some big moves being made in recent days with the federal Opposition pledging to cut 36,000 public service jobs. And over the last day, both major parties now focusing on Work for the Dole schemes in remote Aboriginal communities in the Northern Territory.
Senator Malarndirri McCarthy says replacing the failed Work for the Dole scheme by one that encourages and supports private enterprise for Indigenous Australians will work. And while only 200 Indigenous people have transitioned into real jobs in remote locations such as the Kimberley and Kununurra, Senator says she's confident the entire cohort of 40,000 people could move into real employment. Malarndirri McCarthy, Senator for the Northern Territory, welcome back to the program.
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY, MINISTER FOR INDIGENOUS AUSTRALIANS: Good morning, Adam. Good morning to your listeners. And just before you start, Adam, I'm just at Alice Springs Airport, so you may hear some noises in the background with regards to messages of the airlines. So, just a heads up.
ADAM STEER: The CDP or the various versions of Work for the Dole in Indigenous communities, why have they failed previously? What's gone wrong with them?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Well, during the Coalition's time, we had in opposition pointed out the discrepancies with the CDP, but also the real discrimination and penalties that really diminished people's sense of self in wanting to go to work. The penalties were the toughest. That was what we went through with Senate inquiries on numerous occasions. So, we said when we came into government we would abolish the CDP, Adam, to transition it into real jobs. And that's what we're on about, is to provide real jobs, dignity in the work with superannuation, with long service leave, holiday pay, sick pay, entitlements like any other job.
ADAM STEER: But what is the aim of the Community Development Program? I mean, obviously the aim of the Community Development Program is to get people into work. But how does it differ? The issue has always been there is no work in those remote communities. How does this differ? How are you going to create work that people want to do?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Well, many, many decades ago, there was a program called the Community Development Employment Program which enabled organisations to actually employ people. Organisations in communities were provided the funding to be able to provide the jobs. That disappeared over many, many different sort of illustrations of government. What I've tried to do is take the good from that period and put it into this transition so that we can actually have organisations more in control, businesses more in control of the funding, as opposed to Centrelink.
ADAM STEER: I mean, I saw CDEP work well in Lajamanu in about 2004. It was the only one of the Warlpiri communities that I saw it actually work very well. How does your new system, I mean because you've got to motivate people to be willing to go to work. How do you do that?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: And that's not hard, actually, Adam, the thing is, people do want to work. If there's one thing I do get as I travel across not only the Northern Territory, but other remote and regional parts of Australia, is people do want to work, they want the opportunity, but they don't want to work for $5 or $6 or $10, which was the way under the previous scheme with the Coalition government. I mean, people working for $11 or $12 a day, that's not dignity in the work, you know. So, what we're about is making sure, and as I've travelled to Kununurra, I've talked to workers at Lily Lagoon, in the media centres here in Alice Springs, at Larrapinta Camp, talking to workers here who are working on the program, I've said to them, is this working for you? And they said, yeah, we feel really proud to get up. We go out, you know, around Larrapinta, you've got 500 houses here in Larrapinta Camp where you've got the workers out. There's about 34, 35 people who are now working that weren't, and I think that's wonderful.
ADAM STEER: So, you would say there is an appetite in remote communities, there's an appetite in Wadeye say, for example, for many, many people to go to work.
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: People want to work, they just want to be paid well as well. It's you know, it's like anyone, you never want to be paid less than what you're doing and to provide that incentive, but also to be able to look after your families.
ADAM STEER: This week, the Northern Territory Independent reporting on huge sums of money rorted from the Indigenous Employment Provisional Sum scheme, falsified Indigenous employment schemes. How do you encourage Indigenous employment without it being rorted? Given we've seen lack of oversight and enforcement a huge part of the problem in such remote areas of Australia?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Well, I think you've got to be careful with that. I mean, obviously if people are doing the wrong thing, then the criminal charges need to be laid. It's like any organisation, it doesn't have to be a black organisation. I mean, if you're doing the wrong thing and it's criminal, you know, the police get involved. There's also audits with the Australian National Audit in terms of organisations, they have to be monitored and do their reporting. There are checks and balances in place, Adam.
ADAM STEER: I want to move to a Territory story. The situation in our jails and our watch houses sound dire. Some of the watch houses, 16 to a cell, showers once every four to five days, dirty bedding. What are you hearing coming out of those that are being incarcerated at the moment?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: It is very disturbing. I have certainly heard from stakeholders and individuals here in Alice Springs about their concerns with the Alice Springs Corrections. I've certainly heard it with Darwin. And so yesterday I did speak with the Northern Territory Attorney General, and I raised it with Marie-Claire Boothby and I did appreciate having that conversation with her and expressed my concerns in regards to the prisons. I do understand it does come under the Minister for Corrections, but I have expressed that I do want to have access to visit the prisons and speak to prisoners and corrections officers. So, I will be doing that in coming weeks.
ADAM STEER: Meanwhile, your Northern Territory Senate colleague, Jacinta Nampijinpa Price said there is a significant amount of waste across government portfolios. This is a little of what she's had to say:
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ADAM STEER: Is the Senator right, is there government wastage federally, Malarndirri McCarthy?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Adam, look, we delivered $92 billion of savings in the budget by cutting rorts, wastes and spending on consultants. We know that we've done that. What I think is important for listeners is ask the Opposition what is their plan. They have no plan. All they want to do is cut, cut and cut. They have no plan for First Nations people. They have no plans for the Northern Territory residents. And I think that, you know, I ask listeners to really ask these questions. What is your plan, other than being negative?
ADAM STEER: One of the cost cutting repercussions suggested, is the Welcome to Country process saving $450,000.
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ADAM STEER: Could that money be better spent on community than, as she describes, at a welcoming ceremony, Senator?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Well, again, the Coalition is really focused on culture wars, and it really is quite disappointing, actually. We know that the Opposition leader walked out on the Apology. He won't stand in front of the Indigenous flag. And now he doesn't want elders doing Welcome to Country. Yet, you know, if you look at tourism in this country, the large percentage of tourists come to Australia domestically and internationally, especially here in Central Australia, for Indigenous culture. So, what is it? Which is it? Who's the waste? Is it Aboriginal people? I think we have to really ask the question, where is the Indigenous plan for the future with the Coalition and with Senator Price?
ADAM STEER: Finally, isn't it time we had a Minister for North Australia from Northern Australia, Senator?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Oh, look, Madeleine King does a great job. She's certainly got a lot of support from myself. And also, Luke Gosling as the Member for Solomon. And also, Marion Scrymgour. Our Cabinet and our Minister, and the Prime Minister has been here at least 12 times over the term of his Prime Ministership. And I think that's the longest that that any Prime Minister has ever come to the Northern Territory during their term.
ADAM STEER: Minister, good to hear from you. Well, Senator, excuse me, and Minister, we'll talk to you again soon.
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Thank you, Adam.
ADAM STEER: There's Minister for Indigenous Australians and Senator Malarndirri McCarthy there.