Minister for Indigenous Australians
Subjects: Alice Springs,
STEWART BRASH, HOST: Federal Minister for Indigenous Australians, Malarndirri McCarthy joins us. Good morning.
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY, MINISTER FOR INDIGENOUS AUSTRALIANS: Good morning, Stewart. And good morning to your listeners.
STEWART BRASH: Minister, I did hear from the Leader of the Opposition yesterday, Peter Dutton, saying that a new - if there were an elected Coalition government - they would conditionally agree to all seven requests made by the Northern Territory Government for reform to Centrelink and how those payments are made. Now, I know you and I have spoken about this already late last year when this first came out. The drones have been sorted. But one of the major issues which keeps coming up is being the issue of the payment of Centrelink payments on Monday, Tuesday, the grog free days. Now, is the Federal Government saying just a straight out, no, that will not happen?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: We've been working with the Chief Minister, Stewart, and continue to do so, which has been really important for the residents of Alice Springs. And in regards to the Centrelink payments, the Chief Minister has been briefed by the Minister Amanda Rishworth in terms of Centrelink. What is important to understand here is that the payments, and we've explained this to the Chief Minister, the payments of Centrelink are over 10 days. So, there's 10% of Central Australian residents who get the payment on any given day.
STEWART BRASH: But why can't we just do it in one day?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Well, just have a think about that. Have a think about that. If you had all the money, all the money in town on one day, it would have unintended consequences.
STEWART BRASH: You're saying there'd be more humbug. Are you saying more humbug happening or -
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Well, have a think about that. And are we talking about pensioners? Are we talking about pensioners also having their money on the one day? Are we talking about people with disability having their money on one day? Are we talking about veterans, carers?
STEWART BRASH: All people in the ABC get paid on the same day.
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Are we talking about that?
STEWART BRASH: Well, I'm just trying to make an example.
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: But I'd be interested to hear your listeners. Would pensioners out there want to have no choice in how they're receiving their payments? Would they want that?
STEWART BRASH: But I have no choice how I paid. I'm paid on the day -
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: But I'm asking, if your listeners feedback to you -
STEWART BRASH: It's a good question.
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: I think it's important to hear from them. How would veterans feel? Would you want your payments on one day?
STEWART BRASH: You sound like you're saying that will not be happening.
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY. So, this is what we've explained to the Chief Minister and so we've been able to set up a working group with the Northern Territory Government and the Federal Government officials so that they can work through this. So, I'd be interested to hear the feedback from your listeners if they choose to call in on that.
STEWART BRASH: But it sounds like on the whole you're not in favour of doing it.
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: It's a very complex situation. If we move everybody completely, without having had that conversation with them, do you think that's fair?
STEWART BRASH: 20 years ago it was always Thursday. That's why the grog restrictions in Tennant Creek worked, because it was a Thursday. So, that's why they're trying to do it again.
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Good point. And guess why it changed to 10% every day for two weeks? Because there was consultation with the community and it was the community that determined that that's how it would go. Okay, so this is why it's not that simple. And I would always refer to what do people who receive those benefits think? And I'll be interested to hear their feedback.
STEWART BRASH: I don't want to get stuck in the weeds in too many of these other things. But the one thing which also seems to have changed in the ask from the NTG is they've asked, I think, or the federal Opposition said they're happy to quarantine 80% of the welfare of parents of kids who might be serial offenders or serious offenders. Now, can your government come in any way to that sort of 80% quarantining? If parents aren't doing the right thing, aren't looking after their kids, should they see quarantining of 80% of their welfare.
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Well, this is where the Opposition Leader is confused and so is the Senator. The Northern Territory Government has that legislation now. The Chief Minister can make that decision now under the Care and Protection of Children Act.
STEWART BRASH. So, you support it.
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: They can make it. It's their determination. So, if they have not been referring children through the care system through to the Commonwealth, which they hadn't been before Christmas, I had to point that out and Amanda Rishworth had to point that out, that the Northern Territory Government hadn't been referring children. So, now they've started to. They actually have the power.
STEWART BRASH: It can happen.
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: They can have the power to do this right now should they wish to. And we would obviously assist the Northern Territory Government pass that process. But at this point in time, Stewart, they need to take that responsibility.
STEWART BRASH: We'll talk about jobs in just a moment. But one thing which has come out today, Yingiya Mark Guyula from Malka, the member for the Nhulunbuy and East Arnhem area says he wants to write to the special rapporteur from the UN asking to investigate the incarceration of Indigenous Territorians. We now know from yesterday, I think 400 extra people are incarcerated in NT prisons than they were four or five months ago. Would you welcome the UN looking into the NT incarceration, into the prison system, given where we are at the moment? And the Chief Minister says she wouldn't be welcoming the Rapporteur at the airport, but would you welcome an investigation into the levels of incarceration we're seeing and how people are being incarcerated?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: I understand there are serious concerns around the overcrowding in the prisons, but I'm also concerned about the corrections officers themselves, that they are understaffed, that there's not enough support for them, that we don't seem to have enough employees in that area to actually cater for the care of prisoners in the prisons both here and in Darwin. I'm meeting with the Attorney General of the Northern Territory today and I do look forward to having that meeting.
STEWART BRASH: So, you prefer the UN to keep their nose out of this?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: So, I'd like to speak with her. Now the last time a special rapporteur came to the Northern Territory was actually during the 2007 intervention, and that was an important point. I think it's always important for the United Nations to be keeping an eye on Australia, irrespective of whether it's the Northern Territory or any other part of the country.
STEWART BRASH: But you'd be OK with them investigating the prisons?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Let me have the conversation today with the Attorney General. I do want to hear from the Northern Territory Government as to what their plans are and then I'll certainly make my decision after that.
STEWART BRASH: Very briefly, and I know you and I speak a lot about the state of Alice Springs, the federal Opposition being in saying they're going to make a difference. We know with the new CLP government and the policing over the summer period that people, we know DV is at the same rate, but we know the other offending has dropped, that people are feeling maybe possibly a little bit better about their town.
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: I have received that information -
STEWART BRASH: Should we congratulate the CLP for their efforts in making it work this summer while two Labor governments, a Labor government over two summers failed?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Well, let's have a look at the funding that's gone into enabling that peacefulness, Stewart. It's actually come from the $250 million that we put to the community two years ago and it's still rolling out over a number of years. We've supported the patrols that are occurring. I understand the Chief Minister went last night and these patrols have been pivotal to the peace that we're seeing. And I do commend the police for the work that they're doing. But again, we paid for the extra police here in Alice Springs.
STEWART BRASH: But it's how resources are being deployed by police. And also, under the auspice of the Police Minister, which is Lia Finocchiaro. So, does she deserve congratulations for the work she has done with Commissioner to run Operation Ludlow and in many ways to make the community safer? Would you give her some congratulations for that?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: I think it's important what the Chief Minister's doing. That's why I'm working with her.
STEWART BRASH: But you don't think the CLP should take all the plaudits?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: I think for families here at the moment, I don't think it's about beating chests and saying who's doing what better. I think what the families of Alice Springs want to hear is not the politicians crowing about how good they are. I think the families here want to know that we are genuinely and sincerely doing things irrespective of our party politics.
STEWART BRASH: Let's look at jobs, jobs, jobs. Now, you've spoken and you spoke to the Australian newspaper this week about what will come after CDP. CDP was essentially axed by Minister Wyatt back in 2021. The activity test was got rid of. The punitive nature was got rid of. You've had three years of government to come up with a scheme. Why has it taken so long to deliver something just before an election when there's been three years?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: It's actually been trialled over a number of years. So, we've had a couple of the jobs trials across the 16 areas of the CDP. So, it's actually gone for a couple of years. Where we're at now is this is the second stage and that is to roll out the 3,000 jobs, the transition -
STEWART BRASH: Over three years.
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Yeah, well, the transition, though, of 40,000 participants isn't easy. So, what we want to do is make sure that it's sustainable and that it is genuine in terms of the payments, that people are receiving dignity in work with superannuation, long service leave, holiday leave, sick leave. So, we know that it will take some time. And yes, it is a bold reform and I'm asking for people to support this reform. In fact, I'm asking the opposition to support this reform.
STEWART BRASH: What does it look like? I mean, because you talk about real jobs being created, but there's not enough real jobs out bush especially, to deliver for communities.
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: But you see, this is the thing. I mean, I lived in the Gulf region and worked on the old CDEP and, you know, whilst it had its problems, it worked beautifully compared to what we've seen since then.
STEWART BRASH: So, is it like the old CDEP?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Well, we're certainly taking the best of the old CDEP. We're certainly taking the best of that.
STEWART BRASH: So, people will not be painting rocks like they did back in the day.
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Not under my watch, that's for sure.
STEWART BRASH: But that's the thing. Real jobs. Who's going to deliver the service? Because we don't have a lot of infrastructure, we don't have a lot of capacity out bush to deliver this.
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: We have the local councils and obviously I'm meeting with the regional councils today in terms of Central Desert and also with MacDonnell Council because they will have a large part to play in terms of this. They already do with the thousands of people in their regions to be part of the program. I was just in the Kimberley and Kununurra and we saw 17 jobs there with regards to one resort, tourism resort. So, we are seeing runs on the board. I'm working with the Chamber of Commerce -
STEWART BRASH: So, who's paying the money? How much will be government money, that is the old welfare money. How much would be other money? Where's it all coming from? How does it. If I'm in Yuendumu say, I'm working with Central Desert Regional Council under this programme. What's it going to look like? What will I be doing? What will I get paid?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: So, this money is from the Commonwealth to begin with. Obviously what we want to do is encourage private enterprise as well. We have the Indigenous business networks across Australia. We also have non-Indigenous business organisations who want to do it. I want to see everyone at the table.
STEWART BRASH: How much will I get paid?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: You will certainly get paid more than the low average income. So, it will be up to -
STEWART BRASH: So, how much more money will the feds need to put in to make this work?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Well, at this point in time, we've put in a significant amount of money, certainly over 700 million in terms of the rolling out of this program. And obviously we'll have to keep working on that. But first off, we need to see the providers and organisations and businesses actually apply. We have a grants round open now and I encourage people to apply. It actually closes next week. The second one will open on the 4th -
STEWART BRASH: So, this will be a living wage?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: This will enable people to live above their poverty line, Stewart, you know, this has to be about giving people opportunities.
STEWART BRASH: If I don't want to do it, what happens to me if I say, ah, no stuff that. I just want to get welfare, I want sit down money. What happens?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Well, I'd say that's probably not the best choice. But under our government we are certainly encouraging people to make the most of their circumstances.
STEWART BRASH: Will there be any punitive measures? Because at the end of the day if someone says I'd rather be in town picking up sit down money rather than working for the council or whatever, so what the question would be, and you know, the old system was punitive, what would this system look like when it comes to that?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Ours will be encouraging, ours will be inspiring, ours will be saying get up and enjoy your work.
STEWART BRASH: Very good words, Minister. But at the end of the day if someone -
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: But the same with punitive. Punitive is not a good word, right? But the thing is, I mean where do you really want people to see? Don't you want people to be the best that they can be and take part in society like any other fellow Australian to do and take on board the opportunities they have in front of them? I mean that's what this is about.
STEWART BRASH: I know you've got to get away. What about these positions for Central Australia and the Barkly? Can you guarantee some positions right now? Can you say within the next year we'll have how many positions for Central Australia and the Barkly?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Well, this is why I'm having the meetings in town today to see to the businesses. So, I've got the Chamber of Commerce, I've got Tourism Central Australia and the regional councils, I want to know what they can provide.
STEWART BRASH: So, how many of the 3,000 jobs can we expect to see here though? Do you have an idea?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Personally, I'd like to see more, but I am conscious I also have Queensland, Western Australia, South Australia and New South Wales.
STEWART BRASH: Given that, how many do you think we could expect in the next three years?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: In terms of the Northern Territory? Okay, now you put me on the spot with that one. Look, personally I'd like to see, certainly most of that, but I reckon at least, at least half of that.
STEWART BRASH. So, 1,500 in the next three years?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: I'd like to say that, yes.
STEWART BRASH: But there's 40,000 people, Indigenous people on welfare. When will they all get off the dole, as it were?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Well, give us a second term and let's see what we can do.
STEWART BRASH: Minister, I've got to let you go. You've got other things to do. Thanks so much.
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Thanks Stew.
