: PM Anthony Albanese, good morning.
ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: Great to be back in Alice.
BRASH: Frequent flyer. Which does bring me to my first point. Now, about two years and two weeks ago, it was January, late January. It was the summer of discontent in Alice Springs. Assaults were way up, crime was way up in Alice Springs. You flew into Alice on that day. You and the Chief Minister, Natasha Fyles fronted the media. You essentially turned off the grog taps with agreement with the Northern Territory Government on that day. A few weeks later, you announced the Plan for Central Australia, up to $300 million. Now, I think it's been expanded on that -
PRIME MINISTER: Yep.
BRASH: How much safer is Alice Springs now than it was two years ago?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I don't think someone flies in from Canberra and tells Alice Springs what it's like here on the ground in Alice Springs. What we know is that we're working across the board to make Alice Springs safe. We want every community to be safe.
BRASH: But you came specifically to Alice Springs on that day, of course?
PRIME MINISTER: We did and we provided the funding. One of the issues that remains, I've got to say, is workforce issues attracting people to fill those positions. The funding's available and one of the great things about today's announcement is that you have the Commonwealth, the NT Government. The Chief Minister I met with this morning and she was there to sign. John Paterson from APO NT was there as well. You have indigenous ownership, if you like, of the program, the fact that it's been negotiated through. For six years we'll provide that funding certainty. I've been to Alice Springs now, on three of the occasions, on my 13 visits to the Northern Territory as Prime Minister, more than any Prime Minister has ever been here in one term. And I was shocked, frankly, that when we were looking at what was happening here, a range of community services funding was due to just drop off the cliff on June 30. And that's why providing this funding certainty will allow community-based organisations to be able to deliver their services. Now, this morning we just had the press conference at Congress and when I came here, as well, before the election, it was just a concrete slab. The structure will be open in June or July. What's important there is the work that takes place from the people who will deliver services from that location.
BRASH: And I note you were there with the Chief Minister. Now, if you speak to people, a lot of people will say that this summer has been better than the last two summers. A lot of it has been put down to the policing policies of the Finocchiaro Government. Have you had a chance to say to her, to Lia Finocchiaro, 'good, good job done,' given the crime seems to have come down over this summer as opposed to the last two summers?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we've done, for example, one of the things that has made a difference and the Chief Minister has praised this, including this morning, is that we delivered, the Commonwealth, we changed the CASA regulations - so the use of drones.
BRASH: Now that was only one of seven requests from the Northern Territory Government. Will you deliver the other six requests?
PRIME MINISTER: That's done. Some of those requests require the NT Government to act, something that -
BRASH: Centrelink payments on Monday or Tuesday -
PRIME MINISTER: The Chief Minister said - what we do is we space out the Centrelink payments so they're not all in one hit on one day. We do that right around the country. There are a range of efficiency reasons why that happens. The NT Government are of course responsible for alcohol restrictions. On issues, for example, like the referral of people to Centrelink for payments, where there's an issue of family violence - that's available right now. That doesn't need any changes, that occurs in terms of income management issues. And Amanda Rishworth, the Minister, who's one of the Ministers who's been here recently, along with Mark Butler, the Health Minister and others as well, that's in place.
BRASH: Can I go to something, and this relates to income management and to the Basics Card. In the election campaign, last federal election campaign, Labor promised to make compulsory income management voluntary. That has never happened. Why did that never happen? Because it was a promise made by your Government in the run up to the last election. It did not happen. Why did it not happen?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we're working through issues in a practical way.
BRASH: That's three years ago. That promise was made three years ago.
PRIME MINISTER: That's right. We're working through issues in a practical way in order to make a practical difference.
BRASH. So, will you promise to make income management voluntary next term of government if Labor wins?
PRIME MINISTER: No, what we'll do is we'll make our announcements when they're made and Amanda Rishworth will do that. We'll work through these challenges which are there. We're dealing with - next week will be the Closing the Gap statements, will be made in our national Parliament. The truth is that of those targets, under one third of them have been met, are on track.
BRASH: No but the question was about income management -
PRIME MINISTER: No, all of these issues, all of these issues are complex. They need to be dealt with. You're dealing with intergenerational issues of disadvantage.
BRASH. So, you were wrong to make that election promise last time? Because you did not follow through.
PRIME MINISTER: No, what we're right to do is to ensure that everything that we do makes a positive difference. That is precisely what our approach has been. My Government is a hands on, practical Government. Whether it be the increased funding that we've announced today, $842 million for that certainty. Whether it be the 30 per cent increase year on year - 30 per cent - increase in hospitals funding that we announced just two days ago for the Northern Territory, whether it be the schools funding agreement, whether it be the additional money for remote housing, or whether it be our real jobs plan in remote areas which will also make a difference. Real jobs, real training, real wages.
BRASH: You're hearing from the Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese. Let's look at the NTRAI agreement. Now. The NTRAI was an agreement which has been going since 2015-2016. It has been an agreement where the Commonwealth provides funding to the Northern Territory Government. We have a new agreement which involves APO NT. So, there's an Aboriginal involvement in this agreement, which there wasn't. But essentially, this is a continuation of an agreement which already existed. So, what's the big deal?
PRIME MINISTER: No, it's not.
BRASH: It's a new agreement. But you were all - but this agreement already existed.
PRIME MINISTER: No, it's an - that is like saying that the 30 per cent increase in hospitals funding - "oh well, there was hospitals funding before, so therefore it doesn't matter." I tell you what, it does.
BRASH: No, no, no, I'm not saying. But you have, you've got a new agreement. It was possible -
PRIME MINISTER: It's a new agreement with new parameters and the involvement of APO NT, which, with respect, you sort of just slide past.
BRASH: No, I don't. Aboriginal control.
PRIME MINISTER: That means it's a very different framework. It's one that gives that sense of ownership and participation and that's how you will make a difference. The Closing the Gap agreement, that's a national agreement that's been in place for some time, hasn't been delivered. I pay tribute to, you know, Pat Turner and the Coalition of Peaks is doing hard work, but the peak organisation here, through APO NT, their engagement will make an enormous difference. What we know is -
BRASH: But this is the refunding of the NTRAI, right? Okay, so there's more money, but is it possible this may not have been signed? Is that possible? The money may not have continued?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, under the former Government, when I came to Office, there was no agreement for community services funding here in Alice or in other parts of the Northern Territory. That was one - that was basically a budget fiddle was what that was.
BRASH. So, what would have happened if this agreement had not been signed?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, my Government was always going to get things done because my Government does that.
BRASH: But if it hadn't been signed, what would happen on the ground?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, it needed to be delivered and my Government gets things done, whether it is with state or territory governments of whatever persuasion. The agreements that we have in place now on housing, on schools, on the Central Australia Agreement of $250 million, this agreement of $842 million. My Government is about outcomes and making a difference to people's lives. Working across the three levels of government, but also importantly, working with communities who are directly affected. And we have the same approach whether it is working with the health sector or whether it is working with schools across the country or whether it be working with remote communities here in the NT.
BRASH: What's new? What's new under the agreement? As I said, there's continuation of some funding which is under the old NTRAI. We now have APO NT involved. But what's new in this funding? What is going to be funded which wasn't previously funded?
PRIME MINISTER: I'll give you just one example. Family and children's centres - 12 of them. Twelve of them throughout the Territory. The eight different jobs, training and business hubs as well. That is new funding, new programs that will make a real difference to people because they will have that ownership and engagement on the ground. We know in the past, we need to learn the lessons. When people in Canberra just decide things, divorced from people on the ground, you don't get the outcomes that people with the best of intentions might be aiming for.
BRASH: Shadow Minister for Indigenous Australians, Jacinta Price, and the Coalition have promised to audit all federally funded indigenous programs. How do you guarantee that this money actually is closing the gap, as you hope? I mean, what's the evidence it's going to close the gap.
PRIME MINISTER: What's interesting is the politics being played here.
BRASH: It's a political game, let's be honest. It's an election campaign.
PRIME MINISTER: The Commonwealth have audit processes in place through the Australian National Audit Office - audits programs. We've given it record funding to do its job.
BRASH: So, what were the measurable outcomes under the old NTRAI? What did that achieve?
PRIME MINISTER: The idea - well, clearly, this agreement is a much more improved one. I'll be meeting, after this interview, I'm meeting the Mayor once again, Matt Paterson. I'm meeting with Darren Clark. I'm meeting with people here in Alice as well, to hear directly from them as well as, of course, Marion Scrymgour, is an amazing local Member here. She covers such a vast area in the electorate of Lingiari and she makes sure not just that myself as Prime Minister, but that all of my Ministers are fully aware of what's happening on the ground here.
BRASH: If you can't win Lingiari, it's a 1.7 per cent margin for Labor. It was being redistributed. You've lost - Palmerston's been moved into Solomon, so it's 1.7 per cent margin. If you lost Lingiari, would that mean, essentially, you probably would have lost the election? Because if there's a swing on in Lingiari, is it quite possible that'll be the end?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, Lingiari is, with respect, a very different place from my electorate of Grayndler.
BRASH: Absolutely, no doubt about that.
PRIME MINISTER. So, one of the things about Lingiari that I'm very confident about is that people will back in Marion, she's an experienced former Minister in the NT Government. She's done an extraordinary job here representing the community. Wazza - Warren Snowden, who -
BRASH: You can't keep bringing the ghost of Wazza back.
PRIME MINISTER: No, no, no. He did a great job. Marion has carried on that legacy, but done it with her own style and her own capacity to deliver. And if you look at the delivery in this electorate, frankly, it is unsurpassed of anyone who has represented this seat.
BRASH: Big problem in terms of the elections of recent years. The turnout of indigenous voters - usually strongly pro-Labor - in the NT has been in a death spiral. The last NT election, bush seats were getting 40 per cent voter turnout. That suggests Aboriginal people don't have a reason to come out and vote. So, why should Aboriginal voters come out and vote for Labor at this next election? Because they're not turning out. They didn't turn out for Labor at the last election, at the last NT election.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I'll make two points. One is that you look at the delivery, including today's agreement. We are continuing to do our best as a national government to close the gap. In a magnificent advocate in Marion Scrymgour, you won't get anyone better. And I'll make this point as well. There was a conscious decision by the former Government to discourage the capacity of people in remote communities to vote.
BRASH: But people aren't voting, they're just not voting.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, there was a conscious decision - a cutting of funding of the Australian Electoral Commission to get people on the roll, a cutting of funding for the way that people vote.
BRASH: And have you rectified that?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes, we have. The way that they vote in those remote communities. And that was a decision taken out of a playbook that has taken place in some other democracies as well, of deliberately making it more difficult for people who are disadvantaged to vote.
BRASH: We are vibing, but we're vibing with the PM right now. Now, a number of listeners have asked this question, looking at the money story. Now, the CLP Government has inherited an $11 billion debt from Territory Labor. Now, the new Government says they're going to break their legislated $15 billion debt ceiling. The Commonwealth already provides 80 per cent of the NT's income. At what point do you say enough is enough? We are running up per capita more debt than any other jurisdiction. We are still a creature of the Commonwealth as we are a Territory of the Commonwealth of Australia. When do you say enough, enough to debt? Because do you have to bail us out at some point?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, the NT Government need to work through their issues.
BRASH: What should they do? More tax?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, have a look at what my Government did, which is to turn a $78 billion Liberal debt into a $22 billion Labor surplus and follow it up with another surplus.
BRASH: But does it become your problem? $15 billion, does that become your problem?
PRIME MINISTER: You need to make sure that you are responsible in your expenditure. We have done that, making sure that we turned around those issues. We've saved. We've cut debt by about $200 billion while we've delivered cost of living relief, whilst we've delivered really important programs such as the ones here in the Territory.
BRASH: Now, just this morning, we've heard that the corrections in the Northern Territory are talking about bringing in private contractors to work as corrections officers. One listener, Kim, has asked the question, 'Are you aware of the situation with the overcrowding and the conditions in the Northern Territory prison system.' And as we heard from the union, corrections officers, who are private officers, not corrections staff, are going to come into the system. Are you aware of the problems? Is there something you would advise the Northern Territory Government maybe not to privatise the system?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I'll make two points. One is, I'm aware of it. The second is I'm the Prime Minister, not the Northern Territory Chief Minister.
BRASH: You have a lot of influence in the NT.
PRIME MINISTER: I'm not the Northern Territory Chief Minister. I'll leave that to the Chief Minister. I seek a constructive relationship with the NT Administration. I've been to the Territory three times since just before Christmas. We had a good meeting.
BRASH: Should prisons be privatised?
PRIME MINISTER: It's a matter for the Northern Territory.
BRASH: Okay.
PRIME MINISTER: I've got a big job.
BRASH: That's fine.
PRIME MINISTER: I'm not looking for additional jobs.
BRASH: Something which should affect you. The gallery - ATSIAGA - formerly the NAAG here in Alice Springs. Budget $147 million. $80 million of that is your money. The CLP have now shrunk the project, stuck it on a site that is currently a car park. Are you happy with your money to be spent that way?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, our money is allocated. It's capped at $80 million, one of the things -
BRASH: But the project's much smaller now. Is that good or bad?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we want the project to be as good as possible, clearly.
BRASH: Have you seen what they're offering?
PRIME MINISTER: That's why we made the commitment that was there. I want tourists, whether they be from other parts of Australia or from, internationally, to be attracted towards coming to Alice Springs. That's one of the ways that you build the economy here and create jobs. And there is magnificent art here in the Territory -
BRASH: You're preaching the converted, Prime Minister. But the question remains, you're happy with how the money's being spent? With the shrunk down gallery stuck in what is now a car park?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, look, Tony Burke is the Arts Minister. I haven't, with respect, I haven't micromanaged the plans of every project.
BRASH: Well, Catherine King wants to see the plans. And it's interesting. Marion Scrymgour is suggesting -
PRIME MINISTER: It's reasonable that she -
BRASH: Yeah absolutely. But Marion Scrymgour has suggested the feds take control of the project, increase the funding to ensure it's truly a national gallery. Would you support that?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we have $80 million on the table -
BRASH: And that's all.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, that's what we have on the table. That's a pretty substantial commitment, I've got to say, to an art gallery.
BRASH: One listener, just saying, "What are you going to do about gambling ads?" Are you going to really get tough on this? It's been recommended you do.
PRIME MINISTER: Oh, we're going to continue. We have done more on gambling than any government since Federation, including introducing BetStop -
BRASH: But will you follow the recommendations which would see gambling ads pretty much got rid of? When are you going to agree to that?
PRIME MINISTER: We've done - well, what we do as a Government is we work through issues and we've already done BetStop, we've banned credit card use on gambling. We've changed the benign statement that used to be made. You know, 'gamble responsibly' with letting people know they would lose. And we're engaging with all of the stakeholders to do more. We know there's more to be done.
BRASH: Question from the Mayor of the Barkly Regional Council, Sid Vashist. He said, 'PM, you recently came to Lake Nash in the Barkly. Given you didn't meet with the community at that time, we'd love to host you in the region.' Will you be heading to Tennant Creek and the Barkley as Sid Vashist has asked?
PRIME MINISTER: I will get around the country as much as I can. As I said, 13 visits to the Northern Territory. I was there at Lake Nash at the station there. It was a great day, I've got to say, and they were very gracious hosts. And I've got to say I don't think I've had a better steak for lunch either.
BRASH: I suspect you're not going to tell me when the election date is, but we are heading to election. The polls have not been in your favour in recent time. Your popularity and Labors has been sinking. Australians feel as though they're battling a living, a cost of living crisis at the moment. Normally a first term government would be reasonably confident, but I think you're claiming underdog status at this point. Isn't it a bit dumbfounding that a first term Prime Minister is claiming underdog status? And does that sort of, do you recognise that you're a bit on the nose with the electorate?
PRIME MINISTER: You're verballing me there.
BRASH: Well that's my job -
PRIME MINISTER: No, it's not actually. It's not the job of the ABC. There's enough other media outlets engaged in that.
BRASH: I'm trying to get you to, but would you accept underdog status?
PRIME MINISTER: I'm confident that we will form a majority government after the next election. If you look at any opposition that was about to form government at this stage in the cycle then they are way ahead of a government of the day. My government -
BRASH: Do you agree that a lot of people in the electorate are feeling hurt and they feel as though Labor is the problem?
PRIME MINISTER: There's been -
BRASH: That you're the problem.
PRIME MINISTER: Under a global inflation pressures, many cost of living pressures are there for people, that's why we've acted on it. But all of the action that we've taken, whether it be the tax cuts for every single one of your listeners, whether it be cheaper medicines where people have saved a billion dollars, cheaper child care saved families $2700 -
BRASH: Why aren't they listening? Why are they not listening to you?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, maybe because you won't let me get out the -
BRASH: You've got to say quite a bit, Prime Minister.
PRIME MINISTER: Energy bill relief. All of those things that we have done, if Peter Dutton had his way, people would have been $7200 worse off. And if Peter Dutton is elected, he said on the Insiders program on ABC on Sunday there'll be cuts, but he won't tell you what they are until after the election. We know last time he went after health and wanted to trash Medicare. We will strengthen Medicare. I'm confident that when people focus on what this election is about the government will be re-elected.
BRASH: Yeah interesting. I thought you were going to go at me for verballing you over being on the nose with the electorate as opposed to being an underdog, but that's ok. Can I ask you one last thing -
PRIME MINISTER: There's enough people join in, there's a bit of a media and the ABC join in on it sometimes -
BRASH: Okay.
PRIME MINISTER: I've got to say, where -
BRASH: The one thing, we are going to give you a parting gift, Prime Minister. There is a parting gift for you. You've taken a good part of our rifology vibing program, so I've asked you a key riff, a great riff you want to hear. You get a request on ABC Alice Springs, that is not something which we give away lightly -
PRIME MINISTER: I have hosted Rage before -
BRASH: I know. This is comparable. This is comparable.
PRIME MINISTER: I make that point, and am responsible for Triple J being a national youth network when I was much, much younger.
BRASH: Absolutely. We were all much younger. PM, what's your riff today?
PRIME MINISTER: Camp Dog by King Stingray.
BRASH: Good choice. Thank you, PM.
