Prime Minister, welcome to 7:30.
ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: Thanks for having me back.
FERGUSON: Will Senator Payman still be in the Labor Party at the end of this week?
ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: Well that, of course, is a decision for her. She has made the decision that she can't be bound by what puts our team together. And I would like to see her re-join the team and that option is certainly available to her.
FERGUSON: Now there are reports today that she's been getting advice from the well-known election strategist who's known for helping Independents in the Senate and talking to the Muslim group who are planning to run candidates against Labor in the House and the Senate. Is that a personal betrayal of you?
PRIME MINISTER: I don't take these issues personally. I've been around a while Sarah, and I've seen people at various times make decisions to change the direction upon which they were elected. Fatima was of course elected as the Labor Senator with an ALP next to her name, just like I'm Prime Minister, because I'm a member of a group. I rely upon the support of the political party, which I've had allegiance to since I came out of the womb.
FERGUSON: We're talking about someone here who is talking to someone, both to an election strategist and to a group of people who say that the Labor Party is immoral for its stance on Gaza and they are going to run candidates against Labor. How can someone like that remain in the party?
PRIME MINISTER: Well Sarah, what I'm focused on is making a difference. I'm focused on my job. And yesterday, some 13.6 million Australians got tax cuts. 2.6 million workers got an increase in their wage. Paid parental leave got extended by two weeks. Every household got $300 in energy bill relief. And we had a program on cost of living that will make a practical difference. I think that's what overwhelmingly, a majority of your listeners are concerned about. They're not focused on the rules and practices of the Senate or of the Labor Party.
FERGUSON: If I may interrupt, this is not just about rules. This is about someone talking to people who are committed to thwarting your agenda.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I can't control that. What I can control is what our response is, that if people aren't clearly part of the team, and they say and declare that they can't be part of the team, then they themselves by their own actions have excluded themselves for the period of time in which they cannot undertake that collective principle upon which the Labor Party has been built since 1891.
FERGUSON: But as we sit here, it's acceptable for you, for someone to be talking to your opponents?
PRIME MINISTER: Well clearly, it's not acceptable, which is why Senator Payman has been suspended from participation in the Caucus.
FERGUSON: But since that suspension, she's now talking to people who are committed to unseating Labor members.
PRIME MINISTER: Sarah, the idea that this happened just in the last 24 hours is I think not what has occurred.
FERGUSON: Explain that to us, what has happened here?
PRIME MINISTER: Well clearly, as you know, someone doesn't just pop up on Insiders because they were walking past the studio on Sunday. Now, I asked for an explanation of why, what the motivation of that was. I haven't received one. Just as Senator Payman's Caucus colleagues weren't given the courtesy of any advance notice that she would cross the floor to vote for a position that is not consistent with Labor's position, when it comes to the Middle East. We've taken a very principled position and that is in the long term to work towards a two state solution. But one in which we have provided over $70 million of aid for Gaza, one in which we are saying and voting for in forums the US peace plan that would see a ceasefire occur.
FERGUSON: I'd like to come back to Gaza in a minute. I just want to stay here to be absolutely clear that we are both talking about the same thing, that in addition to those things you talked about, not raising the issue in Caucus, to doing an interview on Insiders, voting with the Greens last week, it's now being reported that Senator Payman is speaking to your direct opponents, people who have said they want to unseat Labor members at the next election.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, Senator Payman is responsible for her own actions -
FERGUSON: Can someone like that remain in the Labor Party?
PRIME MINISTER: And is accountable for it. Well Senator Payman has been suspended from participation in the Caucus. I think it is unfortunate, because if you want to actually create change in whatever direction, you need to be part of a party of government. Senator Payman had the privilege of being elected as a member of a party of government. And it's a pity that she has chosen not to participate as a team member. At no stage has there been anything raised in the Caucus by Senator Payman, for example, about our policy on the Middle East.
FERGUSON: How long do you think she's been having negotiations like these with other parties who are opposed to you?
PRIME MINISTER: I'm not focused on it Sarah, I've got a big job. And when I was door knocking in Melbourne, small businesses in the electorate of Deakin on Saturday, or when I was in the electorate of Holt or Gellibrand over the weekend as well, what Australians were talking about is how to get cost of living relief, what was happening with that tax cuts, what was happening with the jobs. What Australians talked to me about is climate change, and the need to have clean energy rather than Peter Dutton's thought bubble of nuclear energy that's uncontested, untested. They can't say really how many reactors, how many gigs will be produced.
FERGUSON: And indeed these are all the things that you wanted to be talking about.
PRIME MINISTER: And that is what I'm talking about.
FERGUSON: You may have been talking about that on doorsteps. But all through this week in Parliament, you've been talking about Senator Payman.
PRIME MINISTER: No we haven't Sarah. Just a slight correction there. What we've been talking about is what were delivered on the 1st of July on our plan for a stronger economy, on our plan to deal with the opportunity that comes with dealing with climate change, not just the challenge that it represents. On gender equity, we've seen the gender pay gap close to the lowest amount ever. The swearing in of the new Governor-General, Sam Mostyn, that represents really a contemporary person to occupied that office. I thought Her Excellency's speech was outstanding, her first speech as Governor-General. That's what I've been focused on. I know some of the commentariat are obsessed by this. I'm not. What I'm obsessed by is making a difference to the people who need government to make a positive impact on their lives.
FERGUSON: Let me just put it to you in this way, because this goes to what happens at the next election, so it's of immediate and salient interest to you. The group that Senator Payman has reportedly been talking to are angry that you haven't responded strongly enough to the invasion of Gaza. The question is this, how worried are you about the electoral impact of a movement like that?
PRIME MINISTER: I think overwhelmingly, Australians don't want conflict brought here. But we have taken a principled position in accordance with Labor principles. Since we came to office, we reversed the decision about moving the capital to Jerusalem. We changed the nomenclature of Gaza and the West Bank to the Occupied Palestinian Territories. We provided increased aid to Palestinians. We have consistently supported a two state solution. The problem with the motion that was moved by the Greens is it forgot to mention Israel, and a one state solution, whether it is Israel or Palestine, is not in the interests of Israelis or Palestinians. So we have mourned every single innocent life, which has been lost in this conflict.
FERGUSON: Are you concerned that Labor is out of touch now with the priorities of the young, diverse candidates that it wants and needs to attract?
PRIME MINISTER: Well Sarah, we have 104 members of our Caucus, and 103 people are supportive of the road in which we have taken on this issue. I understand that for many members of the Jewish community, as well as members of the Palestinian or Islamic community as well, this is a really difficult issue, really difficult issue. And there's a great deal of passion involved as well. But, the role of the Australian Government is to represent Australia's national interest, to represent as well a principled position. And a principled position isn't to see things as just one side or the other to cheer for. It's to think about what role Australia can play in not just dealing with the immediate, which is why we voted for a ceasefire, which is why we increased aid, which is why we've continued to call for hostages to be released, which is why we voted for increased Palestinian representation at the United Nations.
FERGUSON: Let me ask you this question, which is an extension of this. Do you really think that voters would mark you down for going to a NATO Summit in Washington while they're struggling with cost of living issues?
PRIME MINISTER: No.
FERGUSON: Then why aren't you going?
PRIME MINISTER: I'm not going because we're not members of NATO.
FERGUSON: You went to the last two previous meetings.
PRIME MINISTER: I went to the last two -
FERGUSON: And said they were important.
PRIME MINISTER: And they were and it is -
FERGUSON: Have you changed your mind? Why have you changed your mind?
PRIME MINISTER: No, I haven't changed my mind.
FERGUSON: Did you never say you were going to go?
PRIME MINISTER: No. We never accepted the invitation. We were considering what was before us. When I went to the first NATO Summit, it was an opportunity for the first time to meet many world leaders.
FERGUSON: So your presence is no longer relevant or useful?
PRIME MINISTER: No I didn't say that.
FERGUSON: I'm just pressing you for time.
PRIME MINISTER: We then went to France and we then went to the Ukraine. When I went to the NATO Summit that was held in in Lithuania, I went via Germany to sign a billion dollar deal for manufacturing.
FERGUSON: Other countries are sending their leaders.
PRIME MINISTER: They are, we aren't members of NATO.
FERGUSON: But the other observer countries are sending their leaders.
PRIME MINISTER: You know what I find extraordinary, is that Peter Dutton, who moved a motion in the parliament last year, saying that, demanding that I not go to APEC, where Australia is a member, where we are a founding member of APEC and needed to participate in that forum, as opposed to NATO, where for a lot of the NATO Summit, as an observer country, we're not there. We're not in the room with the NATO members when that takes place.
FERGUSON: Just to be clear, when did you make the decision not to go?
PRIME MINISTER: I made the decision a while ago, and we made a decision to send Richard Marles, who is our Defense Minister, who is the Deputy Prime Minister. And that's consistent, I must say it's a higher level representation than the three previous Liberal Prime Ministers who all sent Ministers rather than go themselves, all three of them. Morrison, Abbott and Turnbull.
FERGUSON: This was meant to be a big week for you. I know you've been making your arguments for tax cuts, cost of living relief, and tomorrow, the introduction of the legislation for Future Made in Australia. Do you blame the Greens for derailing all of that work this week?
PRIME MINISTER: I don't believe that's happened. Because when people get their next pay packet, there'll be extra money in it, extra dollars in people's pockets because of the decisions that the Government has made. And you will recall Sarah, that the decision to change the Liberal tax cuts to make them Labor's tax cuts to make them fairer, to change that decision was a difficult decision, but it was the right decision done for the right reasons. And I note that on July 1, in spite of all of the fuss that was there at the time, from some of the tabloids criticising the decision, there's been no criticism in the parliament this week, no criticism in the media, because it was the right thing to do. Just as our energy bill relief is the right thing to do, just as our support for increasing wages is the right thing to do as well.
FERGUSON: Let me just to put this to you briefly, so for someone earning $50,000, the tax cut's worth just over $17 a week. Is that going to alleviate the very clear suffering of thousands of Australians and thousands more than last year, who are now regularly accessing food banks?
PRIME MINISTER: Well if you're on $50,000, chances are you'll get not just a tax cut, you'll get an increase in your wages as well. So 3.75 per cent up and less money out of it. So you will get to earn more and keep more of what you earn. In addition to that, you'll have the $300 energy bill relief, perhaps more depending upon what state you are in. You'll have if you're a family, the additional paid parental leave. If you rely upon medicines, you'll have a freeze, for someone, a pensioner, will have a freeze for five years in PBS payments. If you have children in child care, 1.2 million Australians have benefited from cheaper child care. If you're doing a TAFE course to advance your position in life, that will be free, now over 400,000 Australians have benefited from that. So it's not one size fits all. It's a full suite of measures designed in a way to provide that cost of living relief while continuing to put that downward pressure on inflation.
FERGUSON: Prime Minister, thank you very much indeed for joining us.
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks very much.
