Mr. Albanese, thanks for talking to AM.
ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: Good to be with you again, Sabra.
LANE: You respect independent economist Chris Richardson?
PRIME MINISTER: I do indeed.
LANE He says the government's announcement on wiping student debt is not smart policy and fails the fairness test, pointing out that those who don't go to university end up earning a third less than those who go to uni in their lifetime. Why is that fair?
PRIME MINISTER: This is about encouraging people to go to university. We know that 80 per cent of the children who are in primary school today will need either a university degree or a TAFE qualification, not as an added bonus for their employment, but as a precondition to getting a job because of the changes that are happening in the economy. We also know that there's an issue of intergenerational equity here. Now making a difference, these three changes - lifting the threshold, which was a recommendation of Bruce Chapman, will make a difference. It was lowered during the Morrison Government. We're restoring equity there so that people will start to pay back once they earn $67,000 rather than $54,000. Taking 20 per cent off people's debt that they owe will make a difference for cost of living, so that if you're on $70,000, you'll pay around about $1300 less per year in repayments.
LANE: But you're making everybody pay for it, though?
PRIME MINISTER: No, those two things combined, what they do is make sure that there's cost of living relief for young people and for people who've gone through and had these debts, which were, for some cases, they're graduating after three years with $30, $40, $50,000 in debt. Now the HECS Scheme was never meant to be a lifetime of debt. It was meant to be a contribution back to education. But also the 100,000 fee, free TAFE places, enshrining free TAFE at the heart of our vocational education training system in areas of skills shortages - these three measures combined are about cost of living relief, but also about setting Australia up for the future because education is so important.
LANE: Is Chris Richardson then wrong? He's saying it fails the fairness test.
PRIME MINISTER: It is absolute, I'll tell you what the fairness test fails, is the fact that I got a free education, and for many, many people who have got this debt hanging over them, for many people the interest that they are paying on that debt is more than the original HECS payment. And the previous government, the previous government changed HECS from a contribution scheme to help, to a loan program as if people were borrowing for a car. Now one of the things about university degrees as well as TAFE qualifications is that it doesn't just help the individual student, it's the key to our national economy. We need to be a smart economy going forward. And supporting education from early childhood through to schools, through the universities, through to TAFE, is an important part of ensuring our economic growth.
LANE: This is going to be put off budget. Why hide it? Why not be upfront with people and include it in the budget bottom line? You've made a big deal of the first two surpluses. Why not include it in the current budget?
PRIME MINISTER: I don't think you can say, Sabra, that any of this is being hidden. We are saying that this is a part of our second term agenda, that this legislation is the first legislation we'll introduce if we're re-elected next year. And all of the budget details of course will be included. We have a budget scheduled for next March, and all of these details, it's gone through our expenditure review committee, all of these three measures, because we think that this is absolutely critical going forward.
LANE: Burt Prime Minister to the point of the question. But by putting it off budget, it's not included in the next budget, this current budget or the next budget forward four year cycle. So taxpayers, you know, they won't really know.
PRIME MINISTER: Of course they'll know. It will be transparent, and we've put out the estimated costs of these measures in the announcement that we made yesterday. We put out what the impact will be, and I'll tell you the budget impact that your listeners -
LANE: But it will impact on the budget and that means that we all, by putting it off budget, you're not being upfront with voters. You're really not.
PRIME MINISTER: We are being totally upfront, and I'll tell you the budget that it will make a difference in. For a person who goes, who's gone to university, those 3 million Australians have an average debt of $27,600, and this will mean $5,500 being wiped from the outstanding HELP loan. And the average benefit across all of the debtors is about $680 less per year in repayments. That's $680 in people's pockets, who've gone through a difficult period with Covid, with the global inflation issues. And what yesterday was about was saying that we've halved inflation, we've got a million jobs created on our watch during this term, we have real wages increasing -
LANE: Sorry, Prime Minister -
PRIME MINISTER: We have all of the economic indicators heading in the right direction. But how do we ensure Australia's future growth in a second term? And that is what this reform is about.
LANE: The Qantas story continues to dog you. Did anyone in your office, not you personally, did anyone in your office ever inquire about an upgrade for yourself with Qantas?
PRIME MINISTER: What we know, Sabra, is that we have a situation whereby politicians across the board got upgrades that was because of the way that the system works -
LANE: It's a simple question to you, did anyone in your office, not you necessarily -
PRIME MINISTER: Not to my knowledge, no.
LANE: Not to your knowledge. Again, that's -
PRIME MINISTER: Upgrades, these upgrades, you're talking about a 30 year period, Sabra. A 30 year period in which -
LANE: So someone might have on your behalf?
PRIME MINISTER: In which one a year, one a year. The only discussions, I've been upfront about this, everything has been declared and I've had no upgrades as Prime Minister. But one a year around about for every year that I've been in office, and that is less than many of my parliamentary colleagues.
LANE: So sorry, Prime Minister, to be clear, you've had about 29 upgrades during the time you've been in Parliament?
PRIME MINISTER: Well the figures show it's all been declared, every one of them, Sabra, which is why we're talking about this. This isn't something that -
LANE: But that's, their upgrades that we're talking about. They are something that you've been denying.
PRIME MINISTER: No, I haven't been denying it at all, Sabra. I've been declaring it at the time, going back to last century, going back to 1998.
LANE: The US election is within 48 hours. Polls are pointing to a coin toss result. It's reported that the Foreign Minister, Penny Wong and your Deputy PM, Richard Marles, have been reaching out to Donald Trump connections, including Mike Pompeo, in the event of a Trump victory. Is that right?
PRIME MINISTER: We engage with people across the US political system. When I was in the United States, I met with the Republicans, I met with the Democrats, I met with people in Congress, people in the Senate. I would have met with over 100 representatives, including, I was the first person to meet with the new Speaker in the Congress after his election.
LANE: In the event of a Trump victory, it's been suggested that Australia might have to move on Mr. Rudd from his post in Washington. Is that right?
PRIME MINISTER: Australia decides who our Ambassador is and Mr. Rudd is doing a terrific job.
LANE: Do you worry that democracy there will be tested sorely during the next 48 hours and more?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we're seeing democracy taking place there in the United States. It is, the democratic values that we share is the basis of our fundamental relationship. And it's a relationship between nations, not a relationship just between people. I've had a very good relationship with President Biden. I've met with him on a number of occasions. And we have worked together constructively in the interests of both of our nations.
LANE: Mr. Albanese, thanks for joining AM.
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks very much, Sabra.
