Climate Change Impact: Does Skin Color Matter?

Carl Schlyter (00:00:02)

Welcome to SystemShift, a podcast from Greenpeace which explores how we can move from a world that serves the economy, to an economy that serves people and the planet.

The theme of this series is change, and each episode we speak with guests across the world to hear how they are changing the planet for the better. I'm Carl Schlyter…

Joycelyn London (00:00:24)

… and I'm Joycelyn London, an Environmental Justice Technologist, Writer and Educator. And for this episode we're asking the question:

"Does the colour of your skin make you more vulnerable to climate change?".

We'll be looking at how systemic inequalities such as race, gender and economic status contribute to climate vulnerability, and why marginalised and systemically oppressed communities must be at the centre of climate adaptation plans, policies and action.

Carl Schlyter (00:01:13)

But what is climate adaptation, do you know? We put a poll on our Instagram page to find out. And what do you think, what did people answer?

Joycelyn London (00:01:22)

I don't know, I'm not sure that many people know what climate adaptation is. I'm sure many people have heard of the phrase, but I don't know, maybe 20%.

Carl Schlyter (00:01:35)

Actually 43% said they know what it is, and 18% said, well I have a good idea. So it's kind of a good result actually.

Joycelyn London (00:01:44)

That's great.

Carl Schlyter (00:01:45)

And how many percentage points actually agree with the statement that climate and social cohesion is linked, what do you think?

Joycelyn London (00:01:55)

I reckon a lot of people agree with that statement. I think there have been so many conversations recently about the link between social issues and the climate crisis and the intersectionality of the climate crisis. I believe that the Greenpeace community know what this is and feel connected to it.

Carl Schlyter (00:02:16)

You're totally right, 91% said yes when we asked the poll on our Instagram.

Joycelyn London (00:02:21)

That's amazing. We also asked, do you see any examples of how your community has prepared to face the impact of climate change. And here's what some of you had to say:

"Made a local organisation to help at least in our town."

"Community and urban gardens."

"Sadly not, so many people don't care and it makes me sad."

"I wish they took climate change more seriously in my country."

Wow, it's really interesting to hear how many people actually don't feel like climate action is being taken, or preparedness for the climate crisis is being taken in their local community.

Carl Schlyter (00:02:57)

Let's hope we can deliver some positive ideas to people to make their politicians and their communities engaged and actually get good ideas from elsewhere.

Joycelyn London (00:03:07)

100%. In my book I document and tell the stories of those on the front lines, marginalised communities, who have no other option but to adapt, and but to fight the impacts of the climate crisis and of environmental injustices. And I think it's interesting that so many of us feel that we're living in communities that are not necessarily prepared for the climate crisis. And that might be something to do with our distance from some of the direct impacts of the climate crisis. I think this is a reason why it's so important we have these conversations and bring in the marginalised perspective into the design of climate adaptation policies, because people on the front lines really have first hand experience of what it means to adapt to the climate crisis. So I'm very interested in the conversation that we'll be having today.

Carl Schlyter (00:03:53)

Yes absolutely.

So Joycelyn, you're actually an expert and write books about climate justice and how climate affects minorities and so on, so this episode we will start with you explaining some of the terminology we'll be using in this episode. How do you define climate justice?

Joycelyn London (00:04:12)

Thanks for this question, I really love to talk about climate justice so this is perfect. Climate justice is simply the recognition that the climate crisis intersects with other forms of oppression and marginalisation and social struggles, and that in order to solve the climate crisis we must also address these social inequalities. Climate justice acknowledges that those who are the least responsible for the climate crisis are often those who are most vulnerable to the impacts of the climate crisis, or to the impacts of environmental degradation and destruction. I think what climate justice and the climate justice movement is really trying to address is the fact that the climate crisis is not just a crisis of carbon. If we met all of our carbon emissions targets we would not necessarily be living in a healthier, better world. That there are other systems that need to be addressed in order to provide healthy, safe, environments for people to live in. And so it's taking this very holistic approach to climate action and environmental action and conservation, in order to provide abundant futures for people everywhere.

Carl Schlyter (00:05:24)

So it's very much so that it is also a social issue linked to poverty and other things, because if you're rich you can always build a wall to protect your community, or you could find water somewhere else and drag it all the way to your community. But if you are not economically strong you will not be able to adapt to the different things, is that what you're meaning here?

Joycelyn London (00:05:44)

Exactly, it recognises that we do not all bear the brunt of the climate crisis equally, so just how exposed we are to climate impacts, but also how able we are to protect ourselves from the impacts of the climate crisis. And usually those who are the most responsible, so those living in the global North or in the global minority as we might say, we are more responsible for the climate crisis but also more capable to adapt and protect ourselves from the impacts.

Carl Schlyter (00:06:16)

But the same goes also within the global North, we can see a clear racial division in who is affected because communities or minorities quite often are forced to live where the terrain might be more susceptible to problems, we see many studies from the US where pollution is really much more targeting impacted minorities and so on, so this is a question both within the global North and global North and South isn't it.

Joycelyn London (00:06:43)

Exactly, there are marginalised communities living both in the global minority and the global majority in the global North and Global South, and these communities are differently exposed to environmental disasters and as you say toxic pollution. And we have a huge amount of case studies from the US, but we will find these patterns in many countries in the global North where communities who are poor: so that is white communities that are poor, black and brown communities that are poor and Indigenous, but also very much aligned with race, communities of colour, Indigenous communities, black communities brown communities, overexposed to climate impacts.

One place in the US where this is very poignant is along the Mississippi, it's a place that's now called cancer alley or death valley. It's a stretch of communities exposed to over 200 petrochemical facilities. The rate of cancer in these areas is 91% more than the average American and most of these communities are poor, black communities.

Carl Schlyter (00:07:50)

And as you mentioned before this is not only a matter of emissions, this is also cancer chemicals and lead poisoning, for example, we also see that has impacted economically less advantageous communities a lot more, we can see and especially in the US you can see the racial divide on that, but generally it's true in most countries. How would you explain to the normal person living in a good neighbourhood, not seeing the consequences exactly in their daily lives. What would be your argument for climate justice to that person?

Joycelyn London (00:08:18)

I think that this goes to the core, and we've been speaking a lot about economic systems and the way that we view our relation to the natural world and to each other, and this lies at the core of the issue is; this dominant system or paradigm that we're living in right now, prioritises individualism. We are unable to see the ways in which we are connected and dependent on other people, and so we see the suffering of others as separate to our own suffering, and a climate justice approach tries to actually show the ways in which we are deeply connected to each other and that the suffering of others is deeply tied to our own suffering, whether we are able to see it or not. A climate justice approach is trying to show the ways that we are connected, that we are all connected both to the land and to other people.

One thing that I find interesting is that those of us who live in relative safety, become very surprised when it is us on the receiving end of climate impacts. And we are not always going to be as protected as we feel that we might. I remember when there were extreme floods in Germany, I think it was 2022, there was extreme flooding in Germany, and many of the people that were interviewed on the news were saying, "This is something I expect to happen in a poor country, not here.". And so when we fail to engage with the issues and the suffering of marginalised communities we also fail to provide the preparation that we need, because we always feel that we'll be protected. And what Indigenous, local, marginalised communities are really good at is facing these issues head on, is resilience in the face of these issues, and they have a huge amount of solutions out of necessity, out of being forced into situations that are difficult, that we just do not have in areas where we feel protected.

Carl Schlyter (00:10:13)

This is actually a theme that you are an expert in. But it's always good to hear it directly from somebody who is living in a community that is affected and that deals with this on a daily basis.

And we have a really good example of that here from Matheus Fernandes, a young climate activist born and raised in the favelas of Guarulhos in São Paulo in Brazil.

Matheus Fernandes (00:10:40) in Portuguese …. (00:10:42) English voiceover

I want to emphasise that it is the residents of the periphery themselves who are driving most of the actions. In Brazil, the most vulnerable communities, such as the favelas, pollute the least, but they are the ones who pay the price, literally, with their lives. One practical example we're doing in the community is risk mapping. With the summer and the big rains coming we formed groups to identify areas vulnerable to flooding and landslides. This helps us create evacuation plans and mark out safe routes, showing where to seek shelter in the event of an emergency. Even with few resources, we carry out this task collectively.

This is a job that should be done by the government, but we, the community, are the ones who end up on the front line. Our people need to live and it's not fair for us to pay a bill that isn't ours.

Carl Schlyter (00:11:36)

That's so true, I worked in the favela as I mentioned and I've never seen so many people suffering and even dying from different kinds of accidents or from landslides, from electrocution, an area which has been abandoned by the government is unsafe. And this needs to be responded to in a proper way. So I'm really grateful to hear the initiatives they're doing here.

Joycelyn London (00:12:05)

I really feel that this connects to the idea that, as Mateus says, this is a bill that isn't theirs to shoulder, it is not a cost that they have incurred, but one that they are facing on the front line. But I think there's this distance from the impacts, say, that people in favelas are experiencing, we think it's something that happens elsewhere. There's an interesting post on Instagram that describes this phenomena where we are watching the climate crisis unfold on our phones, and it just gets closer and closer and closer, until we're the ones doing the filming. And I think people need to understand that whilst we are watching the suffering of others on our phones, whilst we are seeing marginalised communities around the world facing rising sea levels, facing drought, there will come a point where it is us filming on our phones, the environmental destruction.

How do you connect climate justice, climate adaptations and systems change, and maybe we can just start with what climate adaptation really is?

Carl Schlyter (00:13:12)

So it's not about giving up, we need both, we need to transform society but we also need to defend, especially vulnerable communities against the damage already caused or will be coming, as a consequence of our emissions. But the reason why we talk about adaptation is because this is not solving our problems, but it's defending people and communities to be able to have the power to resist. And adaptation can come in many forms, it can be infrastructure, where you need to flood secure roads, to build them better, or you build a wall against it, but it can also be nature-based solutions where you protect mangrove forests to resist more energy waves, and it can also be changing the agricultural systems in order to adapt crops and growing to more unstable climates. But it can also be behavioural changes, so adaptation is not only, as you think, infrastructure, it's also behavioural changes, it's also community changes, it's also agriculture and forestry. So it's a lot more than just the technical side, it's a broader concept.

Joycelyn London (00:14:30)

Yes, 100%. And I think it's really interesting to think that adaptation is simply the way that we can respond to the threat of the climate crisis, would you say?

Carl Schlyter (00:14:40)

Exactly, and when you say we, the profiteers need to pay for the damages they have been doing, that's why we call this damage and losses, it's losses caused by earlier emissions, historic emissions that are now ending up in consequences in totally innocent communities and people. Why should a community in the global South pay for the consequences of flooding, or the consequences of drought, that might cost billions in increased investment for them, when they didn't cause these problems originally, but other people making a profit from it actually caused this. So somebody needs to pay for the adaptation and the "we" here is, all communities need assistance in order to be able to do the investments and the strengthening of society to deal with the consequences, because it's not only physical losses it's also social. Some people might need to move or change jobs because of these consequences. So it's not limiting it to only technological investment, it's not only about physical investments, it's investing in social cohesion and making communities work and change, in adaptation of what is brought onto them by others. So I think that's really important to keep in mind.

Joycelyn London (00:16:05)

I think this is really interesting, because I want to go back to something you asked me earlier about, how can the normal person, the everyday person who feels protected against the climate crisis, feel connected to this idea of climate justice. And what you're describing here is exactly that. People in the global South or in countries that are very exposed to the climate crisis, their ability to adapt impacts the world in myriad ways. As you you mentioned migration, we know that there's a link between education and the climate crisis, we know there's a link between conflict and the climate crisis, we know that there's a link between availability of crops, food, resources, there are so many ways in which the climate crisis will begin to affect the ways in which we interact with products, the stability of the world. We know from the COVID-19 pandemic that the ability for us to protect forest ecosystems is a buffer against the spread of diseases, and so we can understand that the ability of the global community to adapt to the climate crisis and the impacts of environmental degradation will reverberate across the world in very very impactful and strong ways. And I think when we talk about payments for loss and damage it's often spoken about as a charity, like an act of charity, and I think by taking a climate justice view we understand that - one, it's a debt, richer countries have already spent a lot of carbon and they are repaying that carbon back to the world - but it is also part of our adaptation strategy because when you understand that our survival is connected to the survival of those in the global South then you begin to see that we're really paying for all of our collective survival. I think a climate justice perspective is incredibly important when we think about these things, and just unravelling and unveiling some of these inter connections.

Carl Schlyter (00:18:13)

I think that's really interesting to use the terminology of debt here because then it becomes more clear to people who don't fully understand the concept.

Lali Fernando Riascos is an Afro Colombian youth leader and content creator from Guapi, Cauca in Colombia, who does a lot of work around racial justice and giving visibility to Afro Colombian voices and their community. And the first question we asked him was: "Why does climate change hit historically excluded communities the hardest?".

Lali Fernando Riascos, (00:18:50) in Spanish … (00:18:54) English voiceover

You have to look at climate change just like other issues. It's just another issue, just like, for example, armed conflict, gang warfare, lack of access to public services. These things that I just mentioned, historically have always hit certain communities harder. Communities that have been caught up in dynamics of oppression, that often have historical context because of the society we live in. Because we grew up in a colonialist society, in a Eurocentric society, in a racist society.

For example, in Latin America, we see that the most impoverished and precarious communities have been the Afro-descendant and Indigenous communities, precisely because of a colonial process that began with the domination of other people and which in the end left them impoverished and in very bad conditions, which is why these communities, as the years go by, see that despite the fact that the territories and countries are achieving certain degrees of development, they are falling much further behind the development that the countries are supposed to have. So problems like this affect them much more because there is a low level of purchasing power for these communities. There is little level of development, there is little infrastructure, there are few possibilities to face environmental problems, because the territories are not sufficiently prepared, because the administrators of these territories do not have the resources to face this. So it is like a gigantic structure that in the end is not only limited to climate change to affect these communities, but all the problems will affect the poor much more and consequently, the black and Indigenous people, because the majority of them live in poverty.

Carl Schlyter (00:20:48)

So Joycelyn, I assume this is something you recognise from your earlier research as well isn't it?

Joycelyn London (00:20:54)

What Lali is describing here, is the idea that the climate crisis is a threat multiplier, that it exasperates vulnerabilities that communities who are often poor, who are often Indigenous, and who are often black are already experiencing. Some examples that he mentioned were gang warfare, armed conflict, lack of access to public services. These are things that people are already experiencing and that the climate crisis makes worse. It exasperates these situations and these systems that they're living within. So when we were talking about indigenous or black communities or marginalised communities being overexposed to climate impacts, there are more levels to this. It's not just that they're more exposed to a drought or to a flood, it's that when these disasters happen or when these climate impacts happen, it is happening on top of, as Lali described, already very fragile system of oppressions that already exist to make these communities less able to adapt, less able to survive in these terrible circumstances, because their survival is already limited by the systems that they're living within.

Carl Schlyter (00:22:06)

And this whole podcast is about system change, but meanwhile, when we talk about limiting our discussions to only adaptation, what could be done to have greater resilience here and make sure that these communities are less marginalised in our response, when catastrophes happen and when problems arise?

Joycelyn London (00:22:24)

I think this is a really important question because whilst we've been speaking about community and community resilience a lot, that's not the only thing that we need to save us, we do need infrastructure, we need systems of care, we need systems that we know that we can depend on and that can support us when disaster does strike. So while community is very important, and I'm not minimising this, we do need investment in systems, both physical infrastructure but also social infrastructure, that can support people during disaster.

One example I'll give of this very early on in my Master's research I was working on satellite analysis of informal settlements before and after hurricanes, for example. So when a hurricane hits, what we can see is that informal settlements are completely flattened, whereas more formal settlements, whilst there is destruction, there is much less damage. And not only that, those areas are more serviced by evacuation warnings, evacuation support, medical services – there is a much larger system of infrastructure that supports people living in more formal residences – whereas those living in informal settlements like favelas are completely left alone. We don't know how many people are living there, no one is coming to collect them, no one is coming to check whether they're alive. So these are very practical differences that we see in the wake of disasters, how people are responded to, what help and support there is, how does Aid get to these places, what is the resource to rescue people in these places. And often, whilst I'm not minimising the experiences that those who are also well resourced will be facing, absolute hell during these disasters, it's an even deeper level of hell that those who are less resourced, who are minoritised, who are living in poverty, face in the wake of these disasters.

Carl Schlyter (00:24:22)

And this is then further aggravated by the fact that informal habitations are often placed in the worst locations, that's why nobody was living there before, so it might be close to a river, it might be on a hilltop, or other places that are more exposed to a hurricane or other environmental problems. And then also the quality of the infrastructure, the roads or the public transport is going to be lower also. So this is aggravating the response. For example, insurance policies and insurance probably will not exist at all there, so bouncing back is more difficult. So this is aggravated by all these factors.

Now this is one example where if we paid up on our debt here, this money could make, per capita, a huge difference in these areas, for example.

Joycelyn London (00:25:14)

Exactly, and I think that this is key to why ethnic racial marginalised communities must be at the centre of climate adaptation plans and policies. They have the lived experience on the ground of rebuilding and rebuilding, against all of the odds, with all of these stacks of marginalisations and vulnerabilities, and intimately understand the solutions that are needed in their context. And I think this is really interesting, we actually asked Lali whether he recalled any examples of how his community was preparing for, or had previously prepared for the impact of climate change, and so we can get a better idea of not only how further resourcing adaptation in these communities would benefit them, but also what they're already doing to adapt in these situations and how this can inform policy.

Lali Fernando Riascos, (00:26:05) in Spanish … (00:26:11 )English voiceover

I am from the Colombian Pacific and we have always been a very un-urbanised territory. The vast majority of the territory is very agricultural, but on a very small scale, although things are cultivated on a very small scale because the conditions of state abandonment of the territory do not allow for a road. For example, the Pacific jungle cannot be penetrated, it's so dense that the rivers and the sea end up turning into roads for people to move around. I think that's the way in which people have adapted to the territory, taking into account all of this, it's a way of adapting and facing climate change.

To understand that, despite the fact that it also tends to be involuntary for the people, the communities have built in a certain way a fairly friendly relationship (with nature), which makes us understand that the overexploitation of the territory and its resources is not the way forward. As we have seen in other Colombian Pacific territories such as the Chocó, which has been overexploited, it has been overexploited through illegal mining. And we have the Atrato river which is one of the most polluted rivers and which has recently been declared a subject of law, because, in the end we have to find a way to protect it. So things like doing more artisanal mining, because the people have to survive, and do mining that does not require pouring chemicals into the river, but rather mining that is more like taking sand from a beach, putting it in a pan, moving it, and that does not have a big impact.

Joycelyn (00:27:53)

So I think it's very interesting what Lali is describing here, he's describing the fact that regardless of the acute issues that his community is facing, we're going back to this idea of interconnectedness. That there is still an acknowledgement that no matter their situation in life there has to be a relationship with, and a conversation with the natural world, because there is an understanding that their ability to survive is dependent on the natural world - even in situations where of course it would it would feel so necessary to exploit the land in order to survive, but that there is an agreement within the community that adaptation, their ability to adapt to the impacts of the climate crisis, is intimately linked to their ability to protect the ecosystems that they're living within. And I think going back to the question that you were asking about how do we in the global North think about adaptation ourselves, I think it's in this, that our ability to protect ourselves against the climate crisis lies in our ability to connect with the natural world, and also to survive with each other.

Carl Schlyter (00:29:06)

And that would also help us face the poly crisis here, because he mentioned also the toxic gold mining and other mining that ends up polluting the river, so I think this outset of understanding our interdependence on nature, adapting our lifestyles to nature's needs, that will have a bigger chance of success. And also we don't need to uproot everything in our lifestyles, we can sometimes just improve slightly to increase resilience. I remember one example, it's a little known unit in the UN which doesn't want you to change everything, they just help you to improve slightly your agricultural practices, using mostly the resources you have at hand - doesn't require huge monetary Investments. So every community, every farmer could actually improve their wellbeing and their local communities' wellbeing without completely abandoning a nature resilient and nature respecting lifestyle. I think here there is room for development without destruction of the community and society that is at hand. So I think these kinds of initiatives get too little attention today.

Joycelyn London (00:30:19)

I think this is so important and you've just reminded me of an organisation that I really love and respect and who are doing a kind of similar work. They're called Cool Earth and they work to provide funds for Indigenous and local communities specifically living in forests. What they have identified is that the policy around conservation and conserving very important sources or spots of biodiversity around the Amazon and the tropics have been really extractive. That whilst trying to support marginalised communities, communities like Lali's, who are living very close to environments, we impose ideas about how they should protect environments and use these ideas in order to say ""we'll pay you but only after you implement conservation in the ways that we want you to".

Now what Cool Earth is doing is turning this all on its head and in a similar way to what you were describing, they are building a conservation basic income, and their theory of change is, if you provide the basic incomes that communities need to live a resourced life - they're they're stepping in for some of the funds that the loss and damage fund should really be providing, but they're saying, if you provide as little as 2 dollars a day so that people can provide their basic income, they can send their kids to school, they can eat well, they can move out of food scarcity, they can provide their daily needs - that this is inherently a good thing for conservation and this allows people to be able to live better in the ecosystems that they're living in.

This isn't, as you said, razing everything to the ground and creating a whole entirely new system, it's acknowledging that people need to have well-resourced lives, they need to have a decency of quality of life, and it acknowledges what Lali has been describing, that there are many different vulnerabilities that communities are already experiencing, mainly poverty, and that part of addressing the issues of environmental degradation or forest exploitation and conservation, is solving some of those problems first. It's actually not necessarily saying "right, the way to fix the biodiversity crisis is to force Indigenous communities to implement biodiversity actions in this very specific way", but actually saying - providing resources to allow communities to live well-resourced lives is a conservation action in itself. And I think that's part of getting to this new way of thinking about policy, the way of thinking about adaptation in a non-Western, non-extractive way.

Carl Schlyter (00:32:57)

I think you're onto something here. In the first season of this podcast series we had an episode with Guy Standing and we talked about basic income. It's so interesting that independently of where you try it, if it's in Finland in the North or it's in Namibia in the South, we see that people really use this additional income very responsibly. We saw how women in Namibia improve their local small scale businesses and made investments in their sewing machines or other things that would help them to upgrade their current lifestyle without changing it. I think this is a really interesting concept that works independently of community around the world. So if people are interested in that as part of the solutions they could listen to that episode as well.

Joycelyn London (00:33:43)

That's wonderful and you're so right. I was at a panel when we were talking about this and someone said "Well, what if they spend it on alcohol.". And this is this idea that people don't deserve to live their lives, and that we in the North can live our very abundant very consumptive lifestyles whilst destroying the planet, and expect that those on the front lines shouldn't actually have access to joy, to comfort. And that as well as being at the forefront of the climate crisis they also should serve us in protecting these landscapes in this dutiful way. So I think it's very interesting because we do know that people spend this money very well, much better than we spend the money in the global North.

Carl Schlyter (00:34:31)

So as usual we always also give you some tips on what you could do yourself.

Joycelyn London (00:34:39)

Yes, right now Greenpeace actually has a campaign specifically around demanding governments and decision makers to take decisive action for climate adaptation in Brazil. So let me give you a little bit more context. At the beginning of 2024 the city of Porto Alegre in southern Brazil faced its biggest floods ever. And this was a consequence of the de-prioritisation of climate adaptation measures by the local government, which ignored people's needs and didn't budget for flood protection. Now whilst this is happening all over the globe, and you can check your local area or city's climate adaptation plans and see where they've been falling short, there is this specific Greenpeace Brazil petition that you can sign to support decision making and policy in climate adaptation in Brazil specifically.

Carl Schlyter (00:35:31)

And I have a personal example here, just in front of my house we have this small stream and they just adapted the runoffs from that stream to 50-year floods, to be able to deal with that, so I don't need to have my garage flooded next time. So wherever you live, check if your community is actually preparing itself.

Joycelyn London (00:35:50)

Yeah I think that's a great action, especially because at the beginning of this episode we asked how well prepared people felt their communities were, and I think this is an action that, if you are feeling that you don't know whether your community is prepared or not, take some initiative this week to find out. What are the climate risks in your community, and how is your city or your area actually working to challenge and plan for these risks? And if they aren't, maybe you need to write a letter or two to your local MP or representative.

Carl Schlyter (00:36:20)

Yeah, or replace them. Maybe you should be a politician …

This episode is quite clear that adaptation, it can be small, it can be fixing the river streams and runoffs. It can be bigger, it can be protecting your house, it can be planting trees around you or making the forest more resilient by not having this monoculture. It can be so many things in your community. It can be so many things, from your own house to the community, to the city, to the nation. And these things and these investments can be done immediately, so this can really happen in your lifetime.

Joycelyn London (00:37:01)

It really can happen in our lifetime and it is already happening in our lifetime. Communities around the world are facing the climate crisis head-on and are making sure that they're prepared, and I think we all need to spend more time thinking about how we're preparing, because it is possible, both at the community level and by constantly pushing and challenging the systems that are currently failing us.

Yewande Omotoso (00:37:26)

Thanks for listening to this episode of SystemShift. Join us next time when we're asking the question:

"How could Islamic principles boost climate action?".

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