UN Watch’s Legal Advisor Dina Rovner appeared on Chai FM with Howard Feldman to discuss UNRWA’s ties to terrorism, recent Israel legislation limiting UNRWA, and how the international community may react to such legislation.
Howard Feldman: Dina Rovner is the legal advisor for UN Watch. Dina, very good morning. Thank you for joining us. How are you doing?
Dina Rovner: Thank you. I’m good. How are you?
Howard Feldman: I’m good.
Dina Rovner: Thank you for having me.
Howard Feldman: Thank you. So, before we talk about the consequences, can you just give us a brief summary of why Israel took this seemingly dramatic decision to remove UNRWA?
Dina Rovner: Sure. Well, I think this has actually been in the works for quite some time even before October 7th. But October 7th kind of pushed it forward. What we saw was that UNRWA employees participated in October 7th. You saw an UNRWA social worker kidnap the dead body of Yonatan Samerano into Gaza.
We just now had the Israeli strike on Mohammad Abu Itiwi. He was killed in Gaza. This was an UNRWA employee who led the massacre on the Re’im shelter in which Hersh Goldberg-Polin was killed and Aner Shapira and a number of other people.
What we’re seeing is that UNRWA is infested with Hamas. This isn’t just about a few bad apples. UNRWA is rotten to the core. We’ve been very active on this issue.
We exposed the detailed connections, extensive connections, of this Fathi al-Sharif in Lebanon,who was a Hamas leader in Lebanon. He was killed in an Israeli strike on September 30th. He was also a principal of an UNRWA School. He was the head of the teachers’ union in Lebanon. When UNRWA tried to suspend him you didn’t see anyone condemning him for his connections to Hamas, but instead they rallied around him. The entire system rallies around these people.
You have UNRWA leaders, principals, head of teachers’ union, that are leaders in Hamas. You know, this happened in the past with Suhail al-Hindi. It’s not just a one-off thing, it’s a systemic problem. And UNRWA isn’t taking care of it. They are not able to deal with this issue.
Howard Feldman: So what happens now?
Dina Rovner: Well, that’s a good question. But you know people keep saying “UNRWA is irreplaceable,”and that’s not the case at all. You know, all around the world there are conflicts and the UN has a system in place to deal with the humanitarian response in conflicts all around the world. They have this cluster system where they bring in different UN agencies to deal with the issues that those agencies are experts in.
You have the World Health Organization. You have the World Food Program. The United Nations Development Programme. Many of these organizations are already operating on the ground in Gaza. So, in terms of humanitarian aid and the humanitarian response, it’s just a matter of implementing this kind of cluster system for the Palestinians instead of UNRWA. That’s the direction where I think we should see this heading.
Howard Feldman: And in terms of the immediate, what happens immediately? I mean, does UNRWA continue? I mean, I’m assuming they’re not packing up and going home.
Dina Rover: Yeah, well, the laws actually come into effect in three months. So, there is this kind of period where UNRWA can be phased out and these other organizations can come in. And, you know, just over the entire period from October 7th until now, UNRWA really hasn’t been operating to scale in Gaza anyway.
A lot of other organizations and international NGOs not even connected to the UN have been kind of picking up the slack. So, I think that Israel should be able to phase UNRWA out and replace whatever it’s doing with these other organizations.
Howard Feldman: What can we expect in terms of reaction? I mean, is there a chance that Israel can be suspended from the United Nations? And if so, is that a terrible thing?
Dina Rovner: Well, there has been talk about that and nobody knows what will happen. I think the backlash here has been very, very fierce, unfortunately. And it’s unfortunate because you heard people like Secretary-General Antonio Guterres and Commissioner-General of UNRWA, Philippe Lazzarini, and other world leaders saying that this legislation is against the UN Charter and that there will be consequences for Israel, and all of that.
You know, I have to say that’s not true at all. What’s against the UN Charter is the existence of UNRWA, because the UN Charter is all about ending the scourge of war while promoting international peace and security. And UNRWA exists not for that but to perpetuate conflict and to give the Palestinians this false hope of a right of return into sovereign Israel, which we know what that means.
That means the end of Israel as a Jewish state. That means October 7th. This is what UNRWA teaches its students. This is what they believe they’re entitled to. So, putting this against Israel and instead of supporting Israel on this is really regrettable in my view.
Howard Feldman: Well, in fact, if that’s the route and that’s a strategy to say that, well, if you suspend Israel or if you take this further, then we’re going to take further. The very, very, very significant question about whether UNRWA has the right to exist, I think it becomes almost a standoff. It’s like being in a situation that you almost want somebody to sue you for defamation. So, that you can prove that exactly who they are.
So it could be a very, very interesting especially I would imagine for you and UN Watch. This could be a very interesting strategy to follow depending on the decisions that are made.
Dina Rovner: Yeah. I mean, we’ll see what happens. You know, the unfortunate thing, and I know I’ve said this before on your program, is that there’s this automatic anti-Israel majority issue. So, if some kind of proposal gets submitted, chances of it getting adopted are high. And we would hope that Israel’s allies would really stand up for Israel.
Howard Feldman: That is where we leave it. Thank you, as always. Dina Rovner, Legal Advisor for UN Watch, talking about the removal of UNRWA, the impact that it has on Gazans, on Israel, and, of course, Israel on the global stages.
