Assistant Minister to the Prime Minister, Assistant Minister for the Public Service, Assistant Minister to the Attorney-General
ROSS SOLLY, HOST: Good morning to you. Patrick Gorman, thanks for joining us.
PATRICK GORMAN, ASSISTANT MINISTER TO THE PRIME MINISTER: Good morning. Ross, good morning to your listeners, especially those on the text line.
SOLLY: Yes those on the text line are certainly having a lot to say this morning. They're very interested in Gina Rinehart's ideas. Have you noted anything that she said in terms of ways that we might be able to save some money?
GORMAN: Well Ross, I welcome everyone who wants to engage in the debate about Australia's public policy future, whether that be Gina Rinehart, whether that be someone who lives in the suburbs and has a good idea, I always encourage people to engage, whether it be about the public service or anything else. The ideas that were expressed in that contribution, I don't think have a lot of merit or benefit for the Australian people. I think selling off ABC Radio is absolutely crazy. We know that we're going to have more and more natural disasters in our future. ABC Radio is our natural disaster alert service. It saves Australian's lives and it keeps them informed. I wouldn't want to see that put into private hands, so I completely reject these ideas. But I also think there's a challenge that, obviously it's not just the Albanese Government that are having these ideas put to us. These are also ideas that are being put to the Peter Dutton/David Littleproud Opposition. I think they need to rule them out as well.
SOLLY: Well just on that, I mean, her suggestion that an axe be taken to the public service will get some supporters, and the Opposition is on the record to say that it has become bloated. The latest figures yesterday show that there's been a 16% increase in the numbers of public servants. And Jane Hume, the Opposition spokesperson says 'well, we're getting all these public servants, but we're no more efficient than we were before. In fact, we're less efficient.' So maybe Gina Rinehart's on the right idea here?
GORMAN: I would say to Jane Hume and others, is that they need to go and talk to their constituents who were waiting months and months to have their claims processed at Veterans Affairs before we made these investments, who were waiting months and months for packages in the National Disability Insurance Scheme. We have taken the approach of clearing the backlogs and also trying to get all of the private contractors out of those core public service jobs. We had this $21 billion shadow workforce of contractors who were doing what was really core public service work. And so that's why we've taken people who were on contracts, brought them in to do work as public servants, so they're covered by the Public Service Act, which means we lift ethical standards within the public service. I don't think we want to go back to the days where you had more than a million visas on the backlog. We had some 42,000 Veterans Affairs claims waiting to be processed -
SOLLY: So do you think we are much more efficient now? Do you think that the extra 26,000 public servants that have been employed in the last period has provided value for money?
GORMAN: Of course it has, because it's made sure that the services the Australian people deserve and expect from their government, whether it be something as exciting as getting your first pension payment when you get to retirement age, or something as important as getting an aged care package or getting your support through National Disability Insurance Scheme plan, we want to make sure that Australians get those services, and we've seen that. A lot of those additional staff have been in Services Australia, making sure that we can process all of those claims to support the Australian people.
SOLLY: A lot of the public servants are based here in Canberra, but so are a lot of the consultants who were previously getting a lot of work with the government, and a lot of that work has dried up. Do you have any words for them? Do you apologise to them for maybe them not getting as much work as they once did?
GORMAN: We've been really clear, and I want to commend the work that my senior Minister, Katy Gallagher, has done in terms of making sure that we do have clearer plans when it comes to what work should be done by external consultants, where they have specialist expertise, versus what is core public service work. And what we saw was that, particularly in Services Australia, you had far too much outsourcing, far too much sort of people working in labour hire arrangements. And I want people to know that when they call up a Services Australia, they're talking to a public servant, who sit under those public service guidelines, that they are required to oblige by the Public Service Code of Conduct. All of those things.
SOLLY: Sixteen minutes to eight on ABC Canberra Breakfast. My guest is Patrick Gorman, the Assistant Minister for Public Service, who's made the trip down, by the way, from the Hill. He's actually sitting here in the ABC Canberra Breakfast studio, which I'm very happy that you've done that.
GORMAN: I'm going to admit something to your listeners, Ross, I didn't use my MyWay card.
SOLLY: I was going to say, did you catch the light rail down by chance?
GORMAN: I'm a huge admirer of the light rail. It is transformative, and I'm very excited when it gets to the other side of the lake.
SOLLY: Do you reckon you'll use it?
GORMAN: Yeah. Look, I'm not here to talk about my love of light rail.
SOLLY: No, you're not.
GORMAN: But I'm so jealous there is no light rail in my electorate of Perth. I always tell people in my electorate, 'Canberra got to the tram before us!'
SOLLY: You have a very good rail system though in Perth.
GORMAN: We do.
SOLLY: Let's not get bogged down on that. Do you think, Patrick Gorman, that the public service is an attractive place to work for people now? Because there is also this survey out today, which shows that there are some departments where it is not as nice and it's not as welcoming as public servants would like it to be.
GORMAN: One of our goals as we do our Australian Public Service Reform Agenda, is to make the public service a place that's seen as an employer of choice. We literally want people to be knocking on our door trying to get in. And some of the results in the State of the Service Report, which I tabled in Parliament yesterday, show that we have made significant improvements in terms of how public servants feel about their work and about their pay and conditions. But, and I think we know, that there are other parts of the public service where they're on a transformation journey. There are challenges, and we're really open about that. And again -
SOLLY: - Home Affairs is obviously a problem. This is the second year in a row that it has been voted the worst public service department to work for. Less than half of Services Australia and Veterans Affairs staff ranked their workplace favourably. I mean, this is not a good reflection to the public service is it?
GORMAN: What I think is a good reflection of the public service is that you've seen from this Government very strong respect for the work that public servants do. You've seen, in terms of the 347 pages of data that I tabled yesterday in Parliament, that we're really open about the challenges in some departments. These results also go down to a more granular level -
SOLLY: - So is there a cultural problem though, Patrick Gorman, do we have the wrong people running these departments? They're not changing the culture quickly enough?
GORMAN: My job as I see it, as the Assistant Minister for Public Service, is not to attack the public service. It's to back them to make the transformation that they need to make. To make sure they have all of the support, and that's what I'm seeking to do. There are always going to be ways to improve. And I think one of the things is that we have set a very high standard of what we expect, and some of those results show that not everywhere are we meeting those standards. I'm comfortable with that, because I'd rather know where the problems are and have the data to help make the transformation. And again, every departmental secretary gets a report about their SES, about their specific department, and what their scores are. And again, that helps figure out where the challenges are and what transformations need to be made.
SOLLY: So the report you released yesterday shows that 555 public servants breached the Code of Conduct in the 2023-24 year. 647 were investigated, 81 employees were investigated for corruption. Would you say, given the size of the public service, that that is a reasonable figure, or do you think that's something we should be alarmed about, that there were more than 500 public servants who breached the Code of Conduct.
GORMAN: Of course I want every public servant to comply with the Code of Conduct. But what those figures show is that our system works, that where there are breaches of the Code, action is taken. Where there are concerns about corrupt behaviour, action is taken. And I think the other thing that we've really sought to do, and we're now almost a year and a half in from having established the National Anti Corruption Commission, is there's a lot more conversation in the public service about avoiding corruption, and what actions public servants can take if they're aware of corruption, which is equally important. We all have obligation. I'd say to your public service listeners; every public servant has an obligation if they're aware of corrupt or improper conduct, they have obligations when it comes to reporting that conduct.
SOLLY: Is it too hard to get rid of badly behaved public servants, corrupt, or even just public servants who breach the Act? Is it too hard at the moment to get rid of those public servants, do you think?
GORMAN: Most of the processes when it comes to action for the removal or termination of a public servant have been in the Public Service Act and have been the same for about 25 years. I believe that they've served us well. There's a reason that I -
SOLLY: So they're not too protected, are they? People who do the wrong thing, knowing that they can't be sacked or it's going to be very, very hard to sack them.
GORMAN: I think anyone who goes about in the public service thinking that they somehow have some level of immunity from any form of action, is kidding themselves. They really are. You've seen again and again that these are decisions that are made by the Public Service Commissioner. There's a reason that ministers and assistant ministers like myself can't directly sack a public servant. That has stood the test of time since the Howard Government, but through proper process, if you do the wrong thing, you will pay a penalty. Clear and simple.
SOLLY: Couple of texts before we just move on to one another issue. Rowan says, 'Good morning. The Robodebt fraud scandal highlights the cultural chasm that there is in the APS, i.e. the department heads knowingly committing fraud.' I'll ask you a question about Robodebt in just a sec. This texter says 'the claim of the minister that ethics improve if consultants become APS is not only offensive but inaccurate. Anyone working for the APS needs to comply with the APS Code.' And Mike from Hawker asks, 'will the public service staff surveys continue until morale improves? Are these outsourced to contractors to run and summarise?' This texter says, 'what a load of rubbish, it's impossible to get rid of an APS member.' And somebody else asks, 'is in-house consultants working?' So, there's a couple of questions here, Minister, I don't know whether you'd like to tackle some of those?
GORMAN: Firstly, I'll say a big thank you. In terms of how the data is compiled, it's compiled by the Australian Public Service Commission. I'll say thanks to the team who put together the State of the Service Report each year. It's an annual requirement, so it does continue, and that's why we get that longitudinal data that allows us to see where things are improving and where further interventions might be needed. Australian Government Consulting is a new initiative that we've had for just under two years. It is making a difference. It's starting to be taken up by a range of public service agencies. Often the nature of that work is that they do the work in the background before we release new policy initiatives. But I think it makes sense that you if have an in-house option, that also helps us drive down costs when people are coming to government saying, 'here's how much we'd like to charge for this piece of work.' And, respectfully, the contribution around bringing people in-house versus contracted out - I do think that having people covered by the Public Service Act when they're doing their jobs on behalf of the Government, does make a difference. I respectfully disagree with that contribution. I think if you have people covered by all of the Public Service Act and all of its requirements, then that does help us make sure we have the best possible way of delivering services for the Australian people.
SOLLY: On Robodebt, Patrick Gorman, at nine minutes to eight, there are a lot of people in this town who are still hurting from that whole scandal. A lot of people whose lives were upended and are still paying a very, very big price for that. When are we going to release the sealed section? Do you think that would alleviate - I mean, there are a lot of people saying, 'for goodness sake, you know, there's a lot of this stuff that's still hidden away. There are a lot of people who are getting away with stuff that they should not have got away with.' What are you doing to try and speed up that process?
GORMAN: I really do hear that. And I hear that when I go around talking to public service agencies, not just here in Canberra, but when I've been visiting public service agencies in Brisbane, Sydney, even out at Services Australia in Geraldton. I hear that we have started the process of looking at what options there are available to government. It was remembering it was handed to us as a sealed section, but we are looking at what options there are to potentially share more of that information with the Australian public -
SOLLY: What's holding us back? Why can't we release it? What's the problem?
GORMAN: I'm not the decisionmaker on that. And I don't want to, -
SOLLY: Have you been briefed on what is in there?
GORMAN: - and I don't want to put those who are decisionmakers on that matter -
SOLLY: - But you're the Assistant Minister for the Public Service, so you should have some sway in this, because it's the public service who are feeling the pain.
GORMAN: On that point of pain, I want to say; the other piece that I always, whenever I talk about this, I did the State of the Service Report Roadshow, which I'll do with this report in March next year, going around the country talking to public servants. What I always say is that what I see in that Robodebt report is both some of the misconduct and completely unacceptable behavior, but I also see lots of public servants who, within the restrictions of their employment, were doing 100% the right thing, raising concerns. They were highlighting what they thought was wrong. They were taking it through the appropriate channels. Some of them were let down -
SOLLY: Now they want to know what's in the sealed section. 'What are we hiding?' That's what they want to know.
GORMAN: Yeah, I hear that. And what I've said before, just before, Ross, was that we are taking advice on what options are available to Government to share more information with the Australian public. And I understand why people are asking that question.
SOLLY: One other quick question. This is from Jen of Woden; 'look what happens to whistleblowers, why would people report corruption?' We do have a problem, do we not, Patrick Gorman, in this country that we do not do enough to protect whistleblowers? Do you feel that public servants in Australia could feel confident that if they did come forward and report areas of concern that they would be protected because there's plenty of evidence that people have not been.
GORMAN: There are a range of protections for whistleblowers in Australia, but when it comes to ways that public servants can raise concerns, there are a number. They can raise concerns with the Commissioner of the Public Service. They can raise concerns with their departmental secretaries and they can go to others in their agencies. And of course, I just mentioned before, I encourage people, if they're aware of, particularly, corrupt conduct, serious misconduct, that meets that definition, they should go to the National Anti Corruption Commission. I'm not making excuses for any inappropriate conduct, and I'm encouraging public servants - one of their responsibilities, we say, you know, one of the public service values is acting ethically. I want everyone to comply with that, and part of that also means taking steps if you become aware of things that aren't compliant with the law for public service values.
SOLLY: Patrick Gorman, you've been very generous with your time this morning and I appreciate it. Thanks for coming down and having a chat.
GORMAN: Thanks, Ross.
SOLLY: That is Patrick Gorman, who is the Assistant Minister for the Public Service, talking about the State of the Service Report, which was released yesterday.
