Islamic Principles Could Boost Climate Action

Joycelyn London (00:00:02)

Welcome to SystemShift, a podcast from Greenpeace International which explores how we can create an economic system that benefits both people and the planet. The theme of this series is change, can it happen in our lifetime, and each episode we speak to guests across the world to hear how they're changing the planet for the better.

I'm Joycelyn London and I'm an environmental justice technologist, writer and educator.

Yewande Omotoso (00:00:29)

And I'm Yewande Omotoso, I'm a writer and novelist and I work on storytelling at Greenpeace.

For this episode we're asking the question:

"Islamic Finance: how could Islamic principles boost climate action?".

We'll be looking at how faith and climate action are aligned, and why it's important to actually integrate people's faith into fighting climate change, under the umbrella of Islamic Finance.

We put a poll on our Instagram page where we asked "What links do you see between religious faith and climate action?". Here's what some of you had to say.

"Indigenous religion tends to be very caring towards the environment."

"Zero link, religions are based on human supremacy."

"God's creation is precious and awesome, holy, sacred. To damage it is to damage something loved by God."

Joycelyn London (00:01:46)

We also asked people how familiar they were with principles of Islamic Finance. And the results were very interesting, almost half of them had never heard of it, while only about 6% said they were really into it.

Now I don't know about you Yewande, but this is a new topic for me and I was reading that in 2015 the potential of Islamic Finance to support a green economic model was recognised by the Islamic Declaration on Climate Change.

Yewande Omotoso (00:02:12)

It's really incredible, I think what's interesting for me is this idea of how we can fight climate change with what we're doing already.

I do know a little bit about this idea of Islamic Finance and this idea of being stewards of the environment which is embedded in some of the ethics of Islam. So it's nothing extra – I love that element that it's not some extra thing you need to now do, you already have belief and it's built into your faith, I love that.

Joycelyn London (00:02:44)

I really love that point because so much of the work of the environmental justice movement is highlighting how communities have been doing this work for decades and we already have the solutions that we need, we just need to enact them. And so I think this is going to be a big one, especially for Faith communities, because one of the benefits of Faith communities is that they already have such a structure of togetherness and mobilisation around a particular shared belief. And so there's so much that we can learn as a wider environmental movement from those structures. So I'm really interested to be speaking more about this in the episode.

Yewande Omotoso (00:03:23)

So in this episode we're joined by Tariq Al-Olaimy, co-founder of Social Enterprises. Tariq is a member of the Ummah for Earth Alliance and helped launch the Islamic Declaration on Climate Change in 2015.

Joycelyn London (00:03:38)

Welcome to the podcast Tariq, and before we get into what Islamic Finance is, it'd be great for you to explain why it's important to integrate faith-based communities into climate action.

Tariq Al-Olaimy (00:03:50)

First of all, thank you so much for having me. I love to start with just giving a framing of COP 27 in Egypt because I think it was a moment that very much stuck with me. I had the honour of sailing on the Greenpeace Rainbow Warrior ship, which was an incredible experience. And there's actually a Maori saying written at the top of the ship, and that Maori saying is:

"It is the pure light scattered through the teardrops of the sky that forms the rainbow, which is a sacred cloak that protects the Earth".

And that Indigenous saying is very similar to a lesson from the Book of Genesis, where the rainbow is a symbol of God's promise to Noah not to destroy the world of flood waters. And in the Book of Genesis it says:

"When I send clouds over the Earth a rainbow appears in the sky, and I'll remember my promise to you and to all other living creatures."

But what's interesting about that quote and I think, also about what the Rainbow Warrior is saying, is that God did not make a promise that God would prevent us from destroying the world ourselves. So whether from Pakistan to Nigeria, human caused climate change has accelerated the floods that have destroyed whole communities and states, and those that are least responsible for the destruction.

So from a first off, why is it important for Faith narratives, perspectives to be included in climate advocacy? Well when we look at the scale of the transformation needed for climate action we often focus on the technological or the policy solutions. But there's something much deeper at play here, this fundamental need to reconnect to the values and wisdom traditions that have guided humanity's relationship with the natural world for millennia. And for me, in essence it's about bringing climate justice into perspective, that it's about living up to our own promise not to destroy human and more than human worlds, and to live up to our potential of creating flourishing conditions for all of life. This is what the whole of Faith compels us and brings us forward to do.

And we're seeing this play out in really practical ways, because Faith communities represent over 80% of the world's population, their influence goes far beyond, also those congregation numbers, they're stewards of enormous resources that can be mobilised for climate action. So they own 8% of the Earth's habitable land, 5% of commercial forests, Faith institutions control nearly 10% of all global financial investments, they control almost half of all educational institutions in the world, in some way, shape or form. They are the very infrastructure in which we should build climate action upon, and more importantly as I said they bring something desperately needed right now which is a different way of understanding a relationship with time, with nature, and with each other.

Joycelyn London (00:06:58)

That's so beautiful, such an incredible way to introduce this conversation and so many tangible things to hold on to.

Yewande Omotoso (00:07:08)

It's interesting what you're saying because we we're having a conversation today specifically on Islamic Finance, which I will invite you shortly to just say what that is, but but I also hear in what you're saying, we're also talking broader in many ways about faith-based communities and I'm I'm interested both in understanding Islamic Finance specifically, but also the ways in which this is about broader groups, it's about groups with belief and where that belief is very much connected to nature and our role in nature, stewards was the word you used.

Tariq Al-Olaimy (00:07:39)

I've just come back from COP 16 in Colombia, and there was an incredible group, Faiths for Biodiversity, which is this coalition of 40 different faith-based organisations. And something very similar happened at COP 28 where there was a Faith Pavilion, Faith groups coming together. And these religious leaders, these Faith groups who come aren't just participating to look at putting policy inputs into this or trying to reshape the conversation, they're bringing - I always say - a very particular skill. It's the skill of Faith fluency, this ability to connect deep spiritual values with practical action for change. And I think a lot of what we talk about of the "why", why is this important, what are the skills that are involved, it's really in that Faith fluency. And Islamic Finance of course, just going back to your question, is a key part of that.

Yewande Omotoso (00:08:35)

But if we bring it more to some of the specifics and then we can zoom out again, what is Islamic Finance, how is it different to any other kind of Finance, what's it all about?

Tariq Al-Olaimy (00:08:46)

For me Islamic Finance represents a fundamentally different way of thinking about a relationship with money, investment and systems. At its core it's a financial system that aligns with Islamic principles and what makes it particularly relevant today is how it challenges many of the assumptions that have driven our current economic and ecological crises, and it's something that would be very familiar to your other guests as well that have been in the show, people like Amanda Janoo or Indy Johar who are people I deeply respect, and have talked about this kind of systems change. But in terms of the principles and in conventional Finance for example, money itself can make money. It makes money through interest and that's what's known in Arabic as riba, Islamic Finance prohibits this. Instead it emphasizes risk sharing, partnerships and investment in real economic activities that create actual value for society. So if you kind of think about it when money just makes money through interest it can lead to this concentration of wealth that we're very familiar with, it can lead to the kind of speculative behaviour we see driving environmental destruction. And Islamic Finance says by contrast we're going to take that very principle out of the economy because you require investments that are tied to tangible assets, tangible people, enterprises that contribute to the real matter economy.

And this connects to another key feature for investors is that whilst we're doing that, not acting on interest based predatory behaviour, investments must also avoid harm. And Islamic Finance looks at both what you're investing in and how you're investing in it. So it's not just about avoiding certain sectors such as alcohol, gambling etc, it's about ensuring that the structure, the financial deals themselves, promote fairness and shared prosperity. So when we're looking at the climate crisis, for example, and look at the scale of Islamic Finance, the global Islamic Finance industry manages assets worth around 4 trillion dollars, expected to be $6 trillion by 2027, so there's a huge potential when it comes to addressing the climate crisis.

But within that it's important to say that, where there's potential here is that Islamic Finance sees itself not as something that's maybe just separate, an alternative system, but as part of the broader economic system that should be prioritising social wealth over profit maximisation. And that here money is viewed as a public good rather than a means to an end, so when we're talking about climate justice and climate action it's really going back to, Islamic Finance is this vehicle to transform our financial system to serve people and planet rather than just profit, and readdress some of the core tenets of why we have a capitalist induced climate crisis in the first place.

Yewande Omotoso (00:11:44)

Thank you, what I'm hearing, the two tenets you set out, that it is this prohibiting, this built-in prohibiting of endless growth, is my interpretation, that money could just equal money, and more money, this endless consuming. And there's some recognition all the way down to scripture, that that is not going to work out for you human beings or for the planet, and the greater than human world. And then the idea that it cannot do harm, that it must do good, and for me it's really profound, that that's built in there. Thank you for that explanation.

Joycelyn London (00:12:22)

Thank you, I find this so interesting and I think it would be enlightening to think more about how these tenets, where they come from and where they're rooted, either within the Quran or within Islamic teachings, and how Muslims and the wider community can connect with these tenets as well, to understand how they can influence our environmental action, because I think bridging that gap between - here's that outcome we want, we want to move away from this capitalistic, profit driven economy - to something that is more collective and more focused on collective asset holding and into a collective vision, it'd be really interesting to learn more about where these tenets come from and how we can connect to them.

Tariq Al-Olaimy (00:13:08)

To your point of its built-in, my masters was in post growth economics, and I remember when going through some of the lectures and the modules thinking, that a lot of these tenets of what we talk about in a modern post growth society are what I would understand and did learn as an Islamic economy and Islamic Finance. And Islamic Finance is by definition one of respecting planetary boundaries, of these limits, of already trying to embrace a transition to this post growth way of thinking.

Yewande Omotoso (00:13:39)

I'm curious to know where we're at, because you talk about the potential and the figures, which are massive, and that gives a sense of what's possible. Could you speak to what's in play, there are many declarations and reports that have been released and are we beginning to see the ways in which that potential can be realised, the difference that this system can make to the climate crisis that we're facing, and the tools and mechanisms that exist to further that.

Tariq Al-Olaimy (00:14:14)

So I think in terms of where Islamic Finance is well placed to bridge the climate finance gap, Greenpeace of course has released a new Islamic Finance Renewable Energy report that really talks about this in a very profound way. And I think it lays out an incredible framing that first there's a remarkable alignment between Islamic Finance principles and climate action and climate justice principles, because as we've said Islamic Finance requires investments to be ethical and to avoid usury and to avoid destruction of people and the more than human world. And with climate change now recognised as one of humanity's greatest threats, even in the Muslim community, this means redirecting capital away from fossil fuels towards sustainable alternatives like renewable energy.

And in terms of the scale of what we're looking at, the numbers are compelling, from that report, and I mentioned earlier, Islamic Finance assets are expected to reach $6.7 trillion by 2027, and if you take just 5% of these assets towards renewable energy and energy efficiency, by 2030 you could unlock around $4 billion for climate finance. That's incredibly significant when you consider we need about 5 trillion annually to meet these global decarbonisation targets. And often when you're talking about Islamic Finance and where it's directed, it's directed towards the global South, it's directed towards marginalised communities, it's directed to those really at the front lines of the climate crisis. And we're already seeing this potential in action through some innovative financial instruments.

Joycelyn London (00:15:59)

Could you give us an example, Tariq, any that are interesting to you?

Tariq Al-Olaimy (00:16:03)

One is what we call a Green Sukuk, and a sukuk is, think of it as an Islamic version of a green bond, where the funding must be used for environmental projects and climate projects. So the Saudi electricity company, which is the largest utility in the Middle East, used this tool to raise 1.3 billion dollars for two projects around climate action. The first was installing 10 million smart meters to help people reduce energy waste and that was expected to avoid something around 1.90 million tons of greenhouse gas emissions, that's equivalent to taking hundreds of thousands of cars off the road. And second they're using that Green Sukuk to build infrastructure that connects renewable energy sources to the grid. And those two projects, which is quite unique for a place like Saudi Arabia, you have projects that are not just cutting emissions, they're creating new jobs in clean technology, they're helping communities access cleaner energy, they're getting people sensitised to these kinds of projects.

And another example is in Indonesia, where that became the first country in the world to issue a sovereign Green Sukuk, which is basically the government raising money specifically for climate action projects. And they're using their funding for everything from solar power installations to sustainable transport infrastructure. And similarly, what's really powerful about Indonesia's approach is that it's combining this environmental and climate protection with community development. They're saying we're going to be raising this money for climate action in a way that directly goes to helping the community build resilience against climate impacts, whilst improving public transportation, water management etc.

And I think these are two very good examples of, when you take this Islamic Finance approach, tie it with this need to bridge a climate finance gap and really develop these models for community development. And it's where Islamic Finance is well placed, but it's also to say that we only see some of these examples around the world, it's definitely not something that's widespread. I think Islamic Finance is in this point in the journey where it has tried to create these alternative products that have sought to provide the same needs that conventional finance has done, so you want to get a house, a car, a loan, and let's try to do that in a way where we're structuring the project in an Islamic Finance way. And really I think the invitation for a lot of investors today is, that actually let's go back to fulfilling that promise of what is really our deeper purpose here, how can we start to use these tools, these principles, these ethics in a way that don't just replicate what we want capitalism to provide us, but how can we now go the step further and really creating this alternative system. And we have these small examples, but I think that is an invitation to Islamic Finance investors of, you have this potential to do far more.

Joycelyn London (00:19:05)

Thanks Tariq, it's really interesting to get a better idea of what this looks like in practice. Whilst you're describing the ethics of Islamic Finance and also what it looks like in practice, it's really making me think about your work in biomimicry and how essentially a lot of what this is about is, how can we replicate systems of sustenance or systems of abundance that the natural world offers to us and that we are bound to be stewards of, within our financial systems. And I know quite a bit about biomimicry from a design perspective and from a technological perspective but I think it's quite interesting to think about it from this financial systemic perspective as well. And so it'd be really interesting to hear more from you about biomimicry, because you are one of the first 100 certified biomimicry specialists in the world, and it'd be interesting to see how you link this both with finance but also just in biodiversity protection and and connection to the natural world.

Tariq Al-Olaimy (00:20:03)

This is one of my favourite topics to talk about. I'll first start with the philosophy of really how this connects to what we've been sharing. So I come from a tradition that says you must read nature as if it is scripture, that the real classroom is nature, the real lesson, book, teacher, is the leaf, the rivers, the mountains, and this something that's very deeply embedded in our tradition. And I think for me this one, fundamentally shapes how I understand biomimicry which is essentially the practice of learning from nature's scripture, it's the practice from emulating nature's time tested patterns and strategies. And as you said it's more than just copying nature's designs or technical solutions, and then what's profound about biomimicry is that it requires us to shift how we listen to and learn from the more than human world.

And when it comes to the economy I always love to give this example of: if nature really wanted to maximise every single step and stage of its design, leaves would be black - they would maximise photosynthesis that way - but leaves are green. And I think a true understanding of that language (is that) science needs spirituality, it needs Faith because nature moves at the speed of pollination and it speaks in the language of deep time. And if we're to design our economic systems according to the speed of pollination, to the language of deep time, we have very different principles of how we would manage our water, how we share our resources, how we would go about these principles of cooperation, regeneration.

And I think these principles are crucial for climate action, because I think a lot of these so-called solutions for climate action still operate within the same extractive mechanistic worldview that has created this crisis. And going back to your question of, where are we now in Islamic Finance, I think we have been trying to create these Islamic Finance projects for climate within a very extractive mechanistic worldview system. Often Islamic Finance gives this metaphor of we're in a room in a casino, but we want to try to step away from the casino altogether. Nature never works in isolation, everything is connected, so as much as we can put ourselves in a room separate and try to create these alternatives - and where that's also alternative communities, communes, groups, that's important - but really what we need now is systems change and systems shift. And I think biomimicry is that invitation that tells us; that system is around us already, and what is required is for human beings to now match and mimic these principles of nature within our economies, to participate in the flourishing of life all together.

Joycelyn London (00:23:01)

It would be great for you to give us a little bit more of an expansion on why Islamic Finance is important for Muslim communities and especially Muslim community members who are really concerned about the climate and nature crisis and are looking for ways to get involved or to take action.

Tariq Al-Olaimy (00:23:17)

Thank you. I think first looking at the Greenpeace Ummah for Earth Alliance I think really frames the "why" of climate in nature for Muslims in a profound way. So for Muslims the climate crisis is a disruption of what we call Al-Mizan. Al-Mizan means the Divine balance, the balance that God has established in creation and it's something that's very deeply practical. The Quran tells us in a Surah, Surah Ar-Rahman, that heaven was raised and imposed balance, and that you not transgress within the balance. And we're seeing this transgression of course play out in real time through climate change, biodiversity loss and the ecological collapse. And Islam offers this remarkable framework for understanding our relationship with environment and this concept is called the concept of Khalifah, that humans are trustees or stewards of the Earth alongside the rest of nature.

And when we see the climate crisis unfold, we often have these stories from the Islamic tradition reminding us of the Prophet, peace be upon him, and his practical guidance, that he established protected areas for conservation, that he taught principles of water conservation as well. There's a Hadith recorded that said that the planting of a tree was the best ongoing form of charity, and that it is regarded as a charitable gift to the Earth and to your community. The Prophet, peace be upon him, also taught that peoples are partners in three things; water, pasture and fire. And really what we mean by that is water, food and energy, these three tenets of what we also acquire in the climate crisis.

And beyond these spiritual principles there is this practical reality for Muslim communities that in many Muslim majority regions, we are the ones who are on the front lines of the climate crisis. The Middle East and North Africa have 12 of the world's 17 most water stressed countries in the world. We're seeing rising seas threaten Bangladesh, desertification across North Africa, water scarcity across the Middle East. By 2050 water scarcity could cost Middle Eastern countries between 6 to 14% of their GDP. And these aren't obviously just statistics, behind all of this is immense human suffering.

So when we look at something like Islamic Finance, its potential to bridge the financing needs for adaptation today, for renewable energy infrastructure today, to address the climate crisis today, that we have these very principles that say - we are very familiar, and those listening to this podcast are very familiar with - the language of planetary boundaries and how we've transgressed them. We have this in our own Faith and tradition, we know we've transgressed these planetary boundaries as our Faith defines it, we know that we're seeing many Muslim scholars, organisations and communities such as Ummah for Earth increasingly take leadership roles in climate action. And yet we're not quite seeing this bridge fully yet between Islamic Finance and these ethical needs and these needs on the ground. And I think it's an absolute imperative for every investor, customer as well of an Islamic Finance Bank, to start thinking about the climate crisis as actually not just something that you're providing products and services for to address, but actually maybe the very reason why Islamic Finance exists and should exist in the first place, which is really to solve and provide this alternative system out of our ecological crisis, and where many Muslims are suffering today.

Yewande Omotoso (00:26:56)

And if I could tag a question onto that, we draw those wisdoms from some of the teachings you've been sharing, but I'm also curious how non-Muslim communities or countries and institutions - benefit I think is obvious because we're all in the environment - but how can also non-Muslims, communities, countries and institutions participate. Because it makes sense for people who have that belief and it definitely makes sense for people who might not have those specific beliefs but recognise the truth of the tenet there. Are there ideas for how to connect that or are you seeing examples where people are learning, like inter faith?

Tariq Al-Olaimy (00:27:37)

Absolutely, when I talked about this tradition of questioning whether money should make money, for example, Judaism for instance has historically banned also charging interest between fellow Jews. There's actually a very specific term that Judaism uses, ribbis, which is very similar to the Islamic concept of riba preventing interest. The Christian tradition has long condemned usury and many denominations also still maintain very strong positions against exploitative lending practices. You have Buddhist traditions and teachings that maybe don't prohibit interest per se but emphasise ethical livelihood and warn against the exploitation that often comes from financial speculation. And what unites all of these faith perspectives is this common recognition that when we build an economy where it's easier to make money from money than from actual productive work, than from addressing the climate crisis, then we create systems of exploitation. So there's already a very powerful unifying ethical principle that does connect many of these faith-based approaches.

And then when it comes to Islamic Finance, you do have many challenges that lie ahead for the Islamic Finance community. And one of them is that for us to unlock this potential, Islamic Finance institutions need to build stronger sustainability frameworks, better regulatory incentives to drive this kind of investment, and all of these more technical aspects of the financial system and how we do this, requires this collaboration between Muslim and non-Muslim institutions. I've talked about Muslim majority countries, but of course Muslims are everywhere, you know maybe no more so than India, and even in places like that, you do require collaboration between governments, that you may have large Muslim populations but not a Muslim majority government. And of course you then need that kind of collaboration between non-Muslim institutions to work together for Islamic finance.

And there's also unfortunately as well, the opposite of what happens when we don't engage particularly. I talked to someone who said that, actually when I look at some of the destruction that's happening in our forests I go back and see that a lot of it is financed from Islamic Finance institutions in the Gulf, and actually that they're investing in projects intended for community and economic development that are actually causing environmental harm. And I never thought of engaging with Islamic Finance institutions until I learned that actually these investments that are supposed to support agricultural development in the global South are inadvertently driving deforestation, because we actually haven't built these principles deep into these investments. You haven't engaged Islamic Finance institutions looking at - actually if you're saying that you're not supposed to cause harm - this is that harm that you're causing, this is actually how you can better your frameworks to pick up these unintended negative consequences. Then it's these examples of why it's so important for Muslim institutions to work together to ensure that Islamic Finance truly aligns with its ethical principles and supports genuine regenerative development, and that again we're not just creating products that provide an alternative way to give us the conventional needs, but are really going to this regenerative post growth way of thinking of the economy.

Joycelyn London (00:31:08)

It's really interesting to think about frameworks and these unintended effects and the need to actually have concrete practice and guidance on how to integrate these principles into, whether it's Islamic specifically, or non-Islamic spaces. I think it'd be really interesting to hear about this new Islamic Finance and Renewable Energy report as a bit of a touchstone for some of this guidance and for some of this information that both Islamic and non-Islamic communities can actually engage with, and it'd be great to hear why it's important.

Tariq Al-Olaimy (00:31:40)

Well the Renewable Energy report that's been produced by Greenpeace also speaks to where the potential is, because that report also talks about how we could develop special charitable endowments dedicated to energy projects, we could create community funded renewable energy platforms, we can use traditional Islamic charitable giving, as mechanisms to support green infrastructure and communities that is then based in the commons. These are examples where we could bridge the significant climate financing gap, especially in developing countries where traditional finance may be harder to access.

In an environment where we're talking about the loss and damage fund in the climate space - and Islamic Finance is by very definition a fund that is structured in the most idealistic way that you could hope a loss and damage fund could be structured, one that is meant to really address needs of the global South, one that is meant to ensure that the most vulnerable communities are protected - the projects when they're made in investments they're not just done on the basis of predatory loans which unfortunately is what we're often seeing from climate finance going from the global North, but as climate finance that's actually based on this risk sharing, sharing of benefits as well between investors and communities. And we have the principles that are there, the report talks about those principles but also again these examples of what actually are the next steps that the Islamic Finance community can take when it comes to really bridging these gaps.

Joycelyn London (00:33:15)

Thank you so much Tariq, I have learned so much and I'm sure everyone listening at home has learned a lot too. I think you bring an immense amount of wisdom and insight to this topic and thank you so much for your contribution.

Tariq Al-Olaimy (00:33:29)

Thank you both, I really enjoyed it and thank you for the space to share today.

Yewande Omotoso (00:33:33)

I find this topic really interesting personally, just this connection between faith and stewardship of the Earth. One of the things, because I work a lot in language, I just love the way he uses language to try and show us what's possible and show us how limited we are. I think that's actually the thing, the system we're in now is so limited, which is not the language of the system: the language of capitalism or the system is that there's this a possibility for abundance and there's just more and more, and life is better and better, but when you look from the biomimicry perspective and look at how nature works, I just feel the limits of the system we're stuck in at the moment and why this shift is so imperative. But how did you find the conversation?

Joycelyn London (00:34:26)

I think it's so interesting that you bring that up, there's a writer called Julian Aguom, he's a Guamian writer, and in his book "No Country for Eight Spot Butterflies" he talks about that colonialism and capitalism speak the language of limitation, that that is the language that they're speaking, and so I think it's interesting that you pulled that out from the conversation because I totally agree. And I think that a colonial idea about finance, about interaction with the living world and with each other is one of limitation, and that a huge amount of action that needs to be taken in the environmental movement is, reconnecting us to our spiritual selves and our spiritual core, whether that's organised religious spirituality or a connection with the natural world and the living world, and an understanding to the systems of the natural world. And to the fact that so much of the natural world holds the key, holds inspiration for how we could be living, and it's a mirror that we're not looking at, it's like - there's some good over here, but we're going to keep doing this other stuff.

Yewande Omotoso (00:35:32)

Why listen to good advice, why pay attention to wisdom.

Joycelyn London (00:35:39)

Exactly, throw away the wisdom. And I think this is why it's so important to have an environmental justice perspective to environmental action, because the West does not have all of the answers, and especially Western secular society doesn't have all of the answers. We do have something missing, and I think we feel that. Whether we know it or whether we acknowledge it, I think we all do feel some sense of loss of this connection, and that the principles that Tariq was describing, whether within Islam or within other religions, really provide us with something that we're missing. It fills that gap of actually connecting and grounding to a certain approach to life that aligns better with a more ethical and balanced, as he said, relationship with the natural world and with each other.

Yewande Omotoso (00:36:27)

And of course we're talking about - Islam obviously featured a lot in this conversation - but as you say, it's beyond that. We recognise that whether we follow that particular belief or another one or somewhere in between, we like balance, that just makes sense and so many other faiths have that, and then many people who don't have a practice of faith. I love when he talks about nature as scripture because that's the faith …

Joycelyn London (00:36:58)

I had to write it down, I thought that was just such a brilliant quote.

Yewande Omotoso (00:37:06)

I really appreciated - he obviously has so much knowledge and his knowledge spans the very technical world of finance and of then faith and spirituality and Islam itself - but I was really interested to hear how he talked about how we can keep moving this forward and the possibility of the fund, as he talks about it, and what's possible. Because I think I think you're right, I think we all know that something's missing, and I think we're overwhelmed. We can't quite see our way but there's something very enticing about Islamic Finance because it feels like there are some mechanisms in place already, and there's such possibility, and there are communities in place, and there's mobilisation in place and there are things in place that we don't actually have to set up, that are already there and that we can just propel somehow. So I do come away from the conversation feeling quite hopeful and even more curious than I was at the start, I want to go and learn even more about this, and how to understand more and participate.

Joycelyn London (00:38:11)

I find it incredibly inspiring and hopeful, and I think that you talk about overwhelm and this feeling that these issues are so big. And I think we come to this again and again, that so many of the solutions to the climate crisis, to environmental breakdown, already exist. And it's less about having to create whole new systems and more about reconnecting to systems that already exist. And not that there's necessarily one system, like it's all in Islamic Finance or it's all in this way of doing it, but actually really connecting to the incredible diversity of world views, of action, of communities that exist on this planet, and using the abundance that we already hold. I think so much of capitalism reduces and obscures our own inherent abundance, just like the inherent abundance of the natural world, and part of what I hear from Tariq is an understanding and a willingness to engage with this abundance that already exists, and to find it as a starting place and as a place of reconnection rather than having to think, "let's get rid of capitalism, what does that even look like?". And I think that showing it as a journey is something that's very important, and I think that's what faith really teaches you, when you practice a faith, whether it's organised or not, it's really about journeys and it's about journeys with other people. And so it's not just, if I take this climate action today the whole world is going to be solved tomorrow, but really that we're going on a journey of discovery together to make things better, because it's right and because it's good.

Yewande Omotoso (00:39:45)

So often when you think "system shift", it's overwhelming, as we've said many times before, and it seems big, but having this conversation with Tariq today about Islamic Finance I just get the sense, here's something very tangible, that we can amass the money, the finance we need, to actually battle the crisis that is happening all over the world and that can't be overstated often impacts mostly people in the majority world. For me it lightens the load of - the system has to change, it actually points to very specific ways in which that change can happen, and how I can learn more and contribute to it.

Joycelyn London (00:40:26)

I totally agree and I think you know the economic system is one of those systems that feels the most overwhelming and the most touchy, and I think Tariq has really brought to us such an interesting way to think about how change happens in our lifetime, specifically around economic systems, and that we can change the economic systems that we engage with, both on an individual level and in the principles that we approach economics with but also on an institutional level. And I find that incredibly inspiring that we can make change and we can change some of these larger, more complex, more intimidating systems today.

Yewande Omotoso (00:41:02)

And that examples exist, because he said fine, it's not this plethora, but there are examples, it starts somewhere and he was able to share some of that.

Joycelyn London (00:41:16)

So as with every episode we like to end with a few practical ways that you can engage further with the topic. And for me I've really found reading through the Islamic Declaration on Climate Change super interesting and it's given me a broader view of what Islamic Finance is and how it can support environmental action, as well as other ways that the Islamic Faith connects with planetary protection. You can also visit the Ummah for Earth website and I think, Yewande, you've got some key activities that people can get involved with, bouncing off from the Ummah for Earth website.

Yewande Omotoso (00:41:50)

Yes, thanks for mentioning that. The Ummah for Earth website is a great place to visit, it's a movement in itself, Ummah for Earth. You can join that movement as an individual, you can join as an organisation. There's a lot of material on the website including an interactive map where people can see all around the world the different actions taking place and can actually contribute as well themselves.

Another thing to do is to download the Islamic Finance and Renewable Energy report. Reading through that and then also sharing it with the people around you, family, colleagues; reading through it would really give one knowledge about this area that we've been discussing of Islamic Finance and climate action, and highlight the potential that this has to increase investment in renewable energy.

Another great action to take is to listen to the Podcast for Earth. It's a podcast that's an initiative by Greenpeace Middle East and North Africa, and they partnered with the Arab Youth Green Voices Network. This podcast highlights issues related to faith and the environment, related to Islamic values and protecting the Earth. It's a youth focus and it's also a focus on the climate movement. Really invite people to check that out.

Joycelyn London (00:43:07)

And speaking of Greenpeace Middle East and North Africa, the song you're hearing right now is called "Our Dreams", and was made in collaboration with the Sudanese musician and filmmaker Amjad Al-Nour. It features a message from children saying "Our dreams are not for buying and selling". And you can find the music video on the Greenpeace Middle East and North Africa YouTube channel. We'll link this and all of the resources we've mentioned in the show.

Carl Schlyter (00:43:38)

Thank you for listening to this episode of SystemShift.

In our next episode we're asking the question "Buses are free for women in Delhi: what can the world learn from that?". Subscribe to SystemShift wherever you get your podcasts.