ROB SCOTT: Thank you, Gordon. Good morning, everyone. Great to be here, the first panel of this conference, promising to be a very interesting discussion, I hope. I'd just like to ask our three panellists if they wouldn't mind just introducing themselves a little bit and an opening statement. Over to you, please.
MARK HAMMOND: Good morning, all. Vice Admiral Mark Hammond, Chief of Navy, Australia. What a great pleasure to be here at such an important conference in such an important location when it comes to the national security of our nation. It is an important time to be having these conversations. It is great to see the national literacy with maritime security affairs slowly increasing. And I hope this conference is - provides a significant contribution to doing that.
We need to talk about maritime security issues. We need to talk about the events at sea which shape - have shaped the history of this nation and will shape the future security environment for this nation. So thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here, and great to be here with such great friends.
ROB SCOTT: Over to you.
BEN KEY: Admiral Ben Key, I'm the Royal Navy's First Sea Lord. And it is a real privilege to be here - excuse me - in Perth to join this important event. I'm ashamed to say that in nearly 40 years of service this was my first visit to HMAS Stirling yesterday, but it felt a really important opportunity to come and see the progress that is being made here in Perth to support the AUKUS strategic initiative that is now well underway and to better independence the connective tissues between our three navies and allies and partners that we have across the region and envisage the sort of operations that we're going to be involved in over the years ahead from Western Australia in this critically important economic part of the world - the Indian Ocean. So it's a privilege to be here. I'm sure our conversation will cover a lot of the ground over the next 45 minutes or so.
ROB SCOTT: Thank you, Lisa.
LISA FRANCHETTI: All right. I'm Admiral Lisa Franchetti, Chief of Naval Operations for the United States Navy. And, again, it's really a privilege to be here today. And I think this is a very timely conversation as we think about Indian Ocean defence security. This conference is an amazing chance to first talk about AUKUS this morning. And I think AUKUS is really a once-in-a-generation opportunity to knit together the amazing relationship and build on over 100 years of partnership between our navies operating all around the world. Sometimes we say we stand shoulder to shoulder, but in the maritime we steam in formation. And AUKUS is a great opportunity to really build on that.
I think the capabilities of each one of our nations, both in our sailors and in our officers, in our defence industrial bases will all be raised through AUKUS. And as Admiral Ben said, it was really exciting to have the chance to visit HMAS Stirling and be here in Western Australia because we can see the progress made in just the short period of time at getting after the goals and objectives that we've set for ourselves in AUKUS. And I'm really excited. I'm committed to working with my team mates here. And this is going to be an amazing conversation today. So, again, thank you for the chance to particular this off and talk about how AUKUS is critically important to security, not just in the Indian Ocean and the Pacific Ocean but really all around the globe.
ROB SCOTT: Thank you, all of you. I think the symbolism of having you all together on the stage like this is very powerful. I think let's just kick things off with a pretty simple one to start with - perhaps you can kick us off, Admiral Franchetti - an easy one: how important is the Indian Ocean to the - to your nation's security? And we could work our way down the line, just to kick us off.
LISA FRANCHETTI: Yeah, well, the Indian Ocean is absolutely critical. And as we already heard, we talked about all of the trade, the commerce, the resources, the allies, the partners, the nations that border the Indian Ocean. And that impact is felt globally. Unlike land borders, the maritime really has no borders. And what we see - and you can just look all around the world at all the challenges we face - it really flows freely from ocean to ocean. And it's important that we focus on each and every aspect and what we can do together to uphold that rules-based international order that has supported us, our prosperity, our security for the last three-quarters of a century.
I would say if you're not sure if the United States focuses on the Indian Ocean, remember we changed the name of our Pacific Commander to Indo-Pacific Commander. And, again, that just really underscores the importance and the value that we place on this region and our relationships here.
ROB SCOTT: Admiral Key.
BEN KEY: I think you're going to find us in violent agreement on some of these strategic themes. But just to pull out a couple of the kind of perspectives from the UK, for a long time there was a narrative around the UK that it is a Euro-Atlantic Nation by geography, that was where we should focus. But we're a member of a global economy that is actually being driven by this part of the world. And so it is absolutely in the UK's interest to want to engage with it because we are part of that global economy.
And so when I look at why we should be interested here it's because if you want to be part of the rules-based international system, if you want to contribute to a global economic prosperity model that has served us well for the last number of decades, then we have an obligation to play our part in a small way to ensuring security so that economic and free trade can flow, and those who are going about their peaceful and lawful business can do so.
Because as Admiral Lisa has said - and no doubt Admiral Mark will say - the oceans are open to all. We're not constrained by geography; all we're doing is we're influenced by weather. But otherwise we can go out our - and depth of water. And otherwise we can go about our business, and it's really important, therefore, that we are seen to operate closely together as navies to create that framework and as nations to create the environment for us to go about that economic prosperity that affects us all.
ROB SCOTT: Thank you. Vice Admiral.
MARK HAMMOND: Not much left to say apart from the Indian Ocean is home to nearly 35 per cent of the world's population, about $2.9 billion and 38 coastal states that front the Indian Ocean. And as a three-island ocean trading nation we derive our economic wellbeing from the sea routes that allow the free flee of trade and the seabed cables that connect us to the international financial system and the internet of things.
So the Indian Ocean is absolutely foundational to our national security, our economic wellbeing, and our access to that domain is an existential issue for our nation as an island trading nation. So one-third of the national coastline is Western Australian. That means one-third of our economy's access to the sea is dependent upon that Indian Ocean-facing coastline. So it's absolutely fundamental, foundational, and securing our access to that sea in the coming years, assuring our questions to the maritime domain, will be determinative when it comes to assuring the economic prosperity of our nation.
ROB SCOTT: I might ask you this one, Admiral Key: by 2027 Submarine Rotational Force West - SRF West - is expected to be operational. It's just over 30 kilometres south west of here, as you know. What strategic opportunities does operating out of here present over and above other options in this region, and how will that early phase of AUKUS affect your navy's operations and capabilities in the Indo-Pacific?
BEN KEY: Well, we demonstrated in 2021 that, you know, despite the challenges presented by the Covid pandemic that that ability to operate HMAS Astute out of Stirling gave us an operational reach that you don't have if we're dependent on purely doing that from the UK. But nuclear submarines require particular and in some cases unique levels of or types of support. And so having here in Stirling through SRF West the kind of setup and framework that gives us that logistic, engineering and kind of materiel confidence and assurance that allows us to sustain operations at range actually allows - enables the kind of framework obligations and commitments that we were talking - all three of us were talking about, about how we go about ensuring a secure maritime environment for trade and relationships and partnerships to grow.
So the excitement for me is what it opens up another dimension, another part of the world for us to think about long-term sustained forward deployments of UK SSNs into a part of the world where we used to operate our diesel electric boats with a huge amount of confidence. And Admiral Mark will no doubt trot out all the statistics, being an historian of the submarine service in the way that he does - that he is. Nuclear submarines take a particular level of support, and the fact that Australia is now making that investment here, not just in the state but in the commonwealth, for your own benefit but also for ours as well I think is a huge strategic statement of opportunity and also for us obligation as members of the AUKUS framework.
LISA FRANCHETTI: To build on what Admiral Ben is saying, really from our visit yesterday to have a chance to think about what the future, you can see it just in what we saw yesterday. So I would say, just like you said, three things that this is going to enable us to do: first of all, being able to operate forward is a critical part of our navy for sure. We're a global navy; we operate all around the world. We provide options every day to our nation's decision-makers, just like every other navy. And navies are unique because if you can posture yourself forward you are more likely to be in a position where you can provide those options. You can be ready to provide an additional deterrent message. You can be ready to respond in a crisis and, if necessary, you can be ready to fight and win alongside our allies and partners in a war.
And so having this flexibility of operating forward is absolutely critical. You think about the distances of the Indian Ocean, of the Pacific Ocean, again, having touchpoints where you can go and have these unique maintenance and logistic support opportunities, it really extends our reach and our ability to work together.
I would say the second thing that it will provide is an opportunity really to continue to march down the things that we need to do collectively for the AUKUS partnership. You've already seen a couple of US port - US Attack submarines port visits this year. You are going to see the Emory S Land, which has been making its way around through some very amazing and successful port visits around Australia, she's going to be here and do a tendered maintenance period where one of our Fast Attack submarines will come here and have maintenance done. And that maintenance is going to be done by an integrated team of Australians, of Royal Navy and of US sailors that have been training together to be able to start doing this maintenance together. So we'll be able to do that in the future. So, again, in 2027 this is another touchpoint on that milestone of the capabilities we medium to have.
And I would finally say the third thing is that, you know, with our Fast Attack submarines will come our people and our families. And what I've seen from doing two overseas tours, that integration of the families into the community, the opportunity to get to know each other as people, to understand the land, to understand what we hear in the welcoming ceremony, this is a really good opportunity to even further build that relationship between our nations. So I'm very excited about 2027.
ROB SCOTT: Just picking up there on something you said about, you know, your people coming to Western Australia to live and work, with that influx of foreign sailors and their families that are going to be here within, you know, the next three or four years, what is needed to support them? Have you - is there enough schooling, is there enough housing? And how many are we likely to see stationed out here? How long will their postings be? Can you dive into that a bit?
LISA FRANCHETTI: Yeah, well, this is, again, yet another exciting thing that we got to talk about yesterday. And, you know, the government here in Western Australia and all the different ministries are very focused on working with the navy, and our navies are working on exactly what, you know, those types of requirements would be from what would be the expectations for housing, for schooling, for driving on the other side of the road, for the things that we would need, you know, to learn and our sailors would need to learn along with their families.
And then again, how long is an optimal posting? Our normal rotations are about, you know, three years. How would that look, would there be a chance to do a follow-on tour maybe in the maintenance facilities so you could be here for six years, maybe go back to another submarine, especially if they really like being here in Western Australia. So those will be things that we talk about. Again, very exciting to have that opportunity.
And right now it's our opportunity as service chiefs to think really hard and put together a team that can look at all the different facets of what it will take to bring, you know, US sailors, their families, over here. So it's a great work for us to be doing. And it was good to see a lot of the initiatives already on HMAS Stirling in terms of lodging for junior sailors, lodging for more senior sailors, lodging for families. And a lot of that groundwork is being played, and I'm very grateful for it to you and for all the folks here in HMAS Stirling for getting that work done early.
MARK HAMMOND: You're welcome, Lisa.
ROB SCOTT: Admiral Mark, do you think we're going to be able to sustain this influx? I mean, we have to, don't we? We have to make room for them.
MARK HAMMOND: I think Western Australia is saw 90,000 additional people last year in one year. I think we're talking about 5,000 people over a much longer time frame. So the conversations I've had with West Australian government have put it into perspective through that lens for me. So I'm confident.
It requires an investment of resource, it requires a prioritisation of effort et cetera. And that's what we're leaning into. So I am confident. And when you have a look at the accommodation that already exists at Garden Island for the unaccompanied members, it's certainly better than most of what I've lived in as a single member in my time in the Australian Defence Force. And I know - I know - it's got Admiral Key worried. It's very good quality with a beautiful view across Cockburn Sound for almost every member. So I am confident.
But I don't want to walk away from there are challenges, there are - it's going to require a whole of nation, whole of government, whole of community and a whole of community of practitioners here to get the optimal outcome, but that's what we're focused on.
BEN KEY: Can I just pick up on that, because earlier this year we published in the United Kingdom a command paper the previous government did which had broad bipartisan support on the extent of a whole-of-nation effort if you want to operate a nuclear submarine capability. It's not just something that navies do; we clearly have the kind of the sharp end of it in terms of operating the platform, but in order to put in place the technology, the science, the engineering support, the wider logistics base, the family support, that does require a whole-of-government shoulder to put to the wheel.
And whilst I recognise that constitutionally the Australian commonwealth and states are set up differently to that in the UK or the US, the fundamentals in that UK command paper I think would read across just as well into Australia as they do in the UK. It requires schools to be orientated around so that the investment in STEM subjects is sufficient and appropriate. It needs universities and higher education colleges - TAFE, I think, is the term here - to be invested in, understanding that through-life nuclear perspective.
Because it is a stewardship of decades. This is not a capability you can switch on and off at will; it takes, as we've seen from our political leaders of all three nations, really clear strategic intent and decisive direction to be given. And then actually you are committed. This is a digital point - you're either doing it or you're not. It's not a discretionary point, "Well, we'll do it at the a sort of 0.7." It doesn't really work like that.
We've tried that in the UK on occasions in the past and the government has been really clear, which is why the command paper came out, that actually it is a whole-of-nation effort. And I applaud the kind of conversations we've had, particularly from the state ministers that we were privileged to meet last night and also in conversations with the Deputy PM, that kind of clarity of purpose, but we're all in this now, and it's going to take several years. So when we see the sort of early investments going, that momentum that's building now is a really justifiable early inject, but it's going to be around for a long time to come.
ROB SCOTT: As you talk about that momentum there we know that AUKUS is going to require a massive lift on a number of fronts - politically, technologically, financially, human resources. So I guess the questions is: what early signpost of success are you looking for, I suppose, before this conference reconvenes in a couple of years?
BEN KEY: Well, just picking up - so reconvene in 2026, we're going to be a year away from SRF West. The optimal pathway has got some very demanding time lines on it. Navies quite like stretch targets because they force innovation not just from us but from all the kind of broader maritime community, the industrial partners and the like getting behind them. So in a year's time I think if your question was, we'd be sitting here confidently saying, "Yep, we can see that the plan is delivering from 2027. Here are the - here's the forward deployment program, the families will be beginning to arrive. We've seen a growth in the numbers from all three nations in this area and we can see an industrial base also adapting at speed to deliver it."
So that's what good would feel like to me. And either us or our successors will be on the stage going, "Yep, it's looking good. It's been hard work but we feel on track." That's what I think good feels like.
ROB SCOTT: Lisa, what would good feel like for you?
LISA FRANCHETTI: Yeah, well I was going to see it's important, too, to step back and look at all the signposts we already have, and I think that's an important thing, just in the short period of time things that we've already been able to accomplish. If you think about the Australian Navy folks that have already, you know, attended nuclear power training. We have Australian Naval Officers now on several of our Attack boats. We have a lot of people coming through nuclear power school.
Another really unique thing we've been able to do is bring a lot of the maintenance personnel from here, civilian maintainers, bring them up to our Pearl Harbour naval shipyard where we do a lot of maintenance and also put them on the tender along with our uniformed personnel to be able to start to really understand the maintenance, all of the standards that are required. And it's different. And we're having really amazing success.
So again, I think it's important to take a step back and look at all the things we've already done. And those are the signposts that I'm looking at. And everyone - we are all, as Admiral Ben said, you know, sleeves rolled up. There is a lot of work to do, but the benefits are - you can see them; they're tangible. And, again, you know, we'll be looking for those signposts, but I'm confident we're going to make them.
ROB SCOTT: Mark, would you like to add to that?
MARK HAMMOND: Well, I think one of the biggest challenges facing our navy is the professional mastery and technical mastery journey around safe operation and custodianship of a naval nuclear propulsion plant. Forward of the nuclear bulk head, we're good. We drive submarines. We fight submarines extremely well as a small navy. And we've been embedding forward of the nuclear bulk head in the US Navy and the Royal Navy submarines for decades.
That's not the hard bit; it's that professional mastery around stewardship of the naval nuclear reactor. So that's where I'll be looking for those green shoots, to see people taking on leadership positions in reactor control rooms in the US Navy and the Royal Navy, demonstrating competence day in, day out, and then a building cohort that puts us on track. And then ashore it's the similar sort of thing with respect to the industrial workforce - seeing more people become confident on the tools, with the technical books et cetera and demonstrating competency in sustaining this capability to the satisfaction of my colleagues here and their regulators as well.
So that's where I'm initially focused on. There'll be lots of infrastructure and other things we need to look at, but when we're seeing progress in those areas, then I know we're on track.
ROB SCOTT: Thanks. Admiral. Lisa, the capacity and the industry constraints in all three countries have been very well documented. How confident are you that these AUKUS submarines will be delivered on time, and is there a contingency? Is there a plan B if things don't go to plan?
LISA FRANCHETTI: Well, I think there has been a lot of discussion about the submarine industrial base in the US. And, you know, I think the important thing is that everyone that's related to the submarine industrial base is very focused on improving those time lines, exactly what you talked about. And we're making all those investments. We just made some announcements today back in the US about some additional money that we are spending. Of course we're putting a lot of money into our submarine industrial base because we know that we need to accelerate the building of our submarines. And that's done through some of the things you spoke about earlier: the workforce, developing the workforce, investing in our community colleges, investing in the flow, as Admiral Ben talked about, too. How do you generate those workers that are going to have the technical skills to be able to be a submarine builder. And we're starting to see already very good progress in that regard.
The other one is investing in resilient supply chain, expanding the number of suppliers that we have so we can, again, not have choke points as we're trying to build our submarines. And we have this good, ground foundation of workers, of supply chain, and I think that is what you're really going to start to see take off.
So these investments, I think Admiral Ben said it best yesterday - strategic patience. These are steady, long-term, substantial investments - in the US it's all around our country - to bring together all of the things we know we need to do, from supply chain management, workforce development, workforce retention is another expect of that, and making sure that we can, again, accelerate the building to the numbers that we need to be able to satisfy exactly what we need in the US and that we have the submarines available for AUKUS as well. So I'm confident that we're going to be able to do that.
ROB SCOTT: Admiral Ben, are you as confident that we're going to meet these targets?
BEN KEY: Earlier this year the last government - and I stress again and it reiterated again only last week by our new Secretary for Defence - you know, the complete and continued commitment to the new government to the AUKUS program when he was with the Deputy Prime Minister Marles in the UK. Earlier this year the government signalled an additional investment into the town of Barrow and the region around it because it was recognised that in order to meet the growing delivery rate that was going to be required not just in finishing our current Astute-class build but then into the Dreadnought-class, our new generation of SSBN, and then beyond that into supporting SSNA and the decisions that will come from that. Then there has to be a resilient, sustainable and sufficient workforce, and that requires an area that's attractive for people to come and live and work and for their families to grow up and feel supported. And the government recognised that it had an obligation, therefore, to make that investment into the region.
Those of you who have gone to Barrow will recognise that it's been building submarines there for a long time, but it's somewhat at the end of the road. You know, you don't go through somewhere - you don't go to Barrow to go somewhere else. And so - yeah, I can hear all the people who've been there now. And so making sure that you've kind of got that correctly set so that you can then meet the delivery rate and that your supply chain is configured appropriately comes back to the defence command paper that was also issued earlier this year.
So, you know, my sense is that it is challenging. These are difficult, complicated machines to build. And they take time, they take highly skilled workforces. But in doing so, if you get the framework right, the environment right, then I've got every reason to believe that we can do it. And as was indicated earlier in the sort of opening remarks from the Governor, when needs must and pressure comes on - and the world is not getting any more stable or easier to understand - then all of our nations and, in fact, all of the nations here represented, are capable of lifting the pace. And so I'm confident that we'll hit the tempo that we need. But we shouldn't pretend at any stage that you get that as a free good.
ROB SCOTT: Mark, it's going to be difficult, isn't it? But you have these targets.
MARK HAMMOND: Look, it is going to be difficult, but let's remember, our first submarine was built in Barrow - AE1 and AE2 were built over there in the United Kingdom. And AE2, in particular, did something exceptional during World War I, described at the time as the finest act of submarining by anybody. And it's our submarine force is actually most probably highly regarded by the Turks if anyone. And I've had that reflected to me a number of times by Turkish fleet commanders. Apparently we're the best submariners in the world because we were the first to penetrate the Dardanelles.
But we've built submarines here before. So, yes, it's difficult. But we have built submarines in Australia before, and the Collins class remains one of the best conventional submarines on the panel bar none. Yes, it's getting old, but we've been managing those ageing risks, and we'll continue to manage them.
What we're going to do now is going to build another submarine with added degree of complexity, but we're not designing and billing the naval nuclear reactor ourselves. That will come to us as a sealed module. It will be inserted in the design, the design which is being completed by - under UK leadership. So we do difficult things in this country. We do them consistently and we do them consistently well. So I think to that point about strategic patience, this isn't a tactical program; this is a program that will span the leadership tenures of many politicians, many naval leaders, many Defence Force senior leaders, many industry leaders over many years. But I think there's more reason to be confident when you see the marshalling of national resource and willpower behind this. And I look forward to one day watching one of these AUKUS submarines outperform expectations, just like the Collins-class submarines have.
ROB SCOTT: Mark, I want to ask -
LISA FRANCHETTI: Could I just build on, you know, one thing about the workforce, I mean, as I've gone around to visit all of our shipyards, you know, the one thing I can say is that they are so proud of what they do. And I think we shouldn't underestimate the value of patriotism, the sense of shared commitment and the fact that, you know, whether it's a welder or whether it's the engineer who designed the submarine, they are very committed to our nation's defence and the role that they play in it. And they are excited about being part of AUKUS.
So, again, I think, you know, we do need to be, again, eyes wide open about the challenges that we face. But, again, appealing to our people who are going to be this future workforce and getting them to understand, you know, how they fit in to our nation's defence and security is a critically important part of this. It's beyond just technical. It's beyond just salaries. There's a little bit of that type of motivation I think we need to remember to double down on.
MARK HAMMOND: Absolutely.
ROB SCOTT: Mark, given intra-operability that AUKUS aspires to achieve and obviously the purpose to maintain peace and stability in the Indo-Pacific, is it inevitable that if we see conflict over Taiwan that Australia will be dragged into that?
MARK HAMMOND: No. Any participation by the Australian Defence Force in any conflict anywhere on the planet is a sovereign decision for the Australian government. So, no. We operate ships that have been designed and built overseas routinely, and that doesn't wed us to the sovereign decision-making of those foreign governments either. Is the alliance between Australia and the United States fundamental to the national security of Australia? It is. And it has been for many, many years. And this relationship is over 100 years in the making. So, you know, there are - there's a political context to decision-making around participation in conflict. It's our job to be ready, and that's what we focus on as partners in this profession. We will be ready for the challenges of the day to the greatest extent possible within the resources and policy environment within which we serve.
ROB SCOTT: Admiral Franchetti, would you like to respond to that? How does that sit with you?
LISA FRANCHETTI: Well, that's exactly what I view. You know, every nation is a sovereign nation. Every nation's decision-makers are going to decide what they do in a time of conflict. But it is our job to provide those options, to be ready to respond and deliver those options and then deliver on them should we need to be. So no matter where we are in the region, no matter where we are actually in the world, you know, we serve together at the pleasure of our political leadership. And they're the ones who'll make the decisions, but they rely on us for military advice, and that's what we provide.
MARK HAMMOND: Rob, if I may, just to follow up, we're not changing the nature of our operations. We already have a jointly developed combat system and weapon in our Collins-class submarines and we already serve as an integrated force inside our Collins class submarines. What we're changing is the propulsion system which enables those operations. That's what's changing, full stop.
ROB SCOTT: Admiral Ben, I suppose I'll direct this one to you and then get everyone else to comment, too. I know none of you will be really keen to weigh into the politics, but I have to ask: we've just seen a change of government in the United Kingdom. The US is going to the polls very soon. An election is due here in Australia by May next year. So how robust is the AUKUS agreement with all that churn and change at government level and, I suppose, the Trump factor as well?
BEN KEY: So I would refer back to the really clear statement made by John Healey, our Secretary of State for Defence, only last week when he was hosting Deputy Prime Minister Marles in Sheffield that the United Kingdom under the new Labor government is as committed 100 per cent to the AUKUS government as it was under its predecessor. In the UK, defence enjoys broad bipartisan support. We're about to enter a defence review, but I don't see anything in that that is going to undermine the obligations and the energy that we are putting in to the AUKUS framework. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if we don't come out of it even more kind of doubled down on the importance of these partnerships.
So what it's demonstrated to my mind is that the security of the nation - and our Prime Minister has been absolutely clear, the new one, Keir Starmer - is the first obligation of government. And that tends to mean that you can move through election periods, and whilst there will be a lot of conversation about difficult political approaches and different political policy choices in a change of areas, for those of us who are involved in defence and security matters, you tend to get a continuity, because the threat, which is what we're responding to or need to be able to respond to, don't change just because the people of the United Kingdom have gone to the polls.
And I would suggest - and I've known these two nations sat either side of me for a very long time and well - that the same is true of their nations as well. That's why we share value sets. That's why we can create frameworks such as AUKUS and commit to them as part of the international partnership. So I'm - I see no change in how AUKUS matters or the importance of the partnerships that we have with the nations here and more broadly represented in the room.
ROB SCOTT: Admiral Lisa, what about you?
LISA FRANCHETTI: Yeah, I would just say that, you know, we've been in a military each, 38 or 39 years each and, you know, in the US for sure the centre of our national defence strategy always comes down to partnerships. It's the relationships that we have with allies and partners. We know that we'll never operate alone. And this is really the strength of what AUKUS represents.
So I'm confident. I think, you know, when we think a little bit about AUKUS, we've got deep roots; the seeds were planted a long time ago. And, you know, we're continuing to water that AUKUS plant and it is continuing to grow strongly. So I'm confident that we are going to move forward with AUKUS. And I don't want to speculate on anything related to election politics in the US, but, again, our job is to provide that military advice. And when you think broadly about the strategic challenges that all of our nations face, continuing forward with AUKUS is critically important for our security not just in the Indo-Pacific but all around the globe.
ROB SCOTT: Admiral Mark?
MARK HAMMOND: Well, it's the Venn diagram of national interest that underpins all of this. This program will enhance the industrial base of three nations and the defence capability of three nations. What's not to like about that as a political leader? So I think it's a very compelling offer no matter who's sitting in the senior leadership position, the political environment, in all three nations. We just need to make sure that we deliver that uplift in industrial capability, that uplift in lethal capability in the three navies, and that's what the three of us are focused on.
ROB SCOTT: Admiral Ben, I'd like to ask you, your compatriot, the Chief of General Staff Sir Roly Walker - you can see what's coming, can't you?
BEN KEY: I can.
ROB SCOTT: He has made some very frank remarks overnight. He's warning that Britain's army must be ready in three years to fight a war against what he's termed as an axis of upheaval of Russia, China, Iran and North Korea. He's predicted that Russia will emerge from the Ukraine war very, very dangerous - are his words - and wanting retribution against countries like the UK that support Ukraine, like Australia. Do you share his views?
BEN KEY: One of the advantages of being in several times zones and several thousand miles away was that he didn't bother sharing the script with me in advance. So the detailed logic underpinning that I'm not going to - I'm not in a position to comment on.
But there is a broader piece which I do agree with and which Admiral Sir Tony Radakin, the Chief of Defence Staff, is also really clear on the record, if you accept the thesis - and I think most people in the room would - that the world is becoming less certain, more - with greater potential for instability, with a growing number of challenges, you know, the likes of which we have not seen for a long period of time, then we who are leading defence forces have an obligation to ensure that the capabilities that we offer up to our political leaders are robust, resilient and capable of responding in an operationally advantageous way to whatever we may be asked to do.
And so I quite like the challenge he's set the British army. There's been a lot of commentary in the UK press and more broadly about the challenges that they have - that we all have. You know, the Royal Navy is not exempt from that. And by putting out a stretch target in the way that he has and said this is - "We're going to double lethality over the next three years," that doesn't mean changing the size; it's a mindset. It's making sure that you're optimising what you've got available because you've never got everything you want.
The history of warfare is that it starts on a day not of our choosing, it's not always against the people we expect, and you have to go with what you've got. And so, therefore, really getting our heads around that on every day we are as ready and as best prepared we can be and that we're optimising the investment, not just the treasure that we're entrusted with, but the intellectual capital and the energy and talent of the people. And it's not just those of us in uniform, that's the broader industrial base, to making sure that you are better tomorrow than you are today. That sort of challenge into the system I really welcome and support. And I think as a group of chiefs in the UK we are completely aligned on that obligation to move forward.
So I don't resile myself from Roly's themes at all; I've known Roly a long time and I know that we share a lot of the same analysis, even if the absolute detail of what he said at RUSI I haven't yet to terms with.
ROB SCOTT: Admiral Lisa, what do you think of Sir Roly Walker's comments about that axis of upheaval?
LISA FRANCHETTI: Well, I would agree that if you look all around the world, the challenges are really endless. And I think every day - and when I put out and became the Chief of Navy, I put out a paper called America's War-Fighting Navy, and it just talks about who we are, what we do. Because our people expect us to be ready to deliver combat credible power, to deter adversaries, to respond in a crisis and, if necessary, to beat them in war. And I think that mindset is really important to our navies because from our perspective as we - for a long time I think we really enjoyed sort of unfettered access to the seas. I think many of us took for granted the ability for free trade, commerce, the flow, the preservation of international law. And I think you do see that under threat everywhere. If you look in Ukraine, if you look in the Red Sea, you look in the South China Sea, it is really important that we don't take that for granted. So especially as navies, it's important that we talk about that with our sailors, with our civilians, with our practitioners, with our strategic planners so we can make sure we're going to deliver warfighting advantage every day. Because you do go to war with the navy that you have. And we've got to be ready to employ that.
And the other part of that - again, going back to our workforce and all of our sailors - it's employing what you have in a different way. So if you want to get more players on the field, you want to use what you have differently, that comes from the innovation and the creativity of our sailors. And if we can learn how to unleash that and give them that mindset, that's going to make us successful in the future no matter where the crisis is.
ROB SCOTT: Admiral Mark, what do you think of the comments?
MARK HAMMOND: I'd like to pick up on Ben's point about the history of warfare. Let's remember that the conflict ends when one of the protagonists loses either the national willpower or the economic ability to continue the fight. And that to me is where the ripples come across here. As the chief of a navy in an island-trading nation, it should surprise no one that I'm focused on our economic security, our economic wellbeing, that is derived from sea lines of communication as undersea cables. Because if you cannot maintain your economic well-being - for us the import/export arrival of goods - then you cannot underwrite the mobility of the Australian Defence Force, let alone the civilian architecture which enables that.
So that's where I'm focused in my lane. I would expect my great friend Lieutenant General Simon Stuart to absolutely be advocating for the most capable, most lethal army force that the nation can afford for the same reason. We do live in an environment where the future is uncertain. My personal philosophy is that we have an obligation to do everything humanly and legally possible to assure the economic well-being and national security of this nation. And that's what we are all focused on. And the same for Air Marshall Steve Chappell, our new Chief of Air Force. The three of us work as a team to make sure that we generate the most capable integrated force within the policy environment and the resource constraints that we have of the day.
So it does not surprise me that there is commentary out here, informed commentary, no doubt. How we come together as a team, as an integrated force, at sea is where we're focused. But domestically and in our own respective nations we need to do that as part of a much larger organisation. That includes space and cyber, but I'll leave it there.
BEN KEY: Can I - I think it's also really important we don't lose track of the importance of deterrence here. And deterrence - war is not something rational people seek because it is by its very nature chaotic and irrational in the outcomes. And so it is a point of last resort. You know, many a staff college essay starts with Clausewitz and Sun Tzu and ends up there as well.
But in order for deterrence to work we have to demonstrate capable - high levels of capability that put into the minds of others doubt about whether or not they would be successful in achieving their aims - whoever they are and whatever their aims must be. And so when you look at the 75th anniversary of NATO that's just been marked, two NATO nations on stage, His Excellency the Governor referred to the kind of additional investment and the strength of the narrative around NATO. Australia, a close partner of NATO and with a permanent presence in Brussels to understand what the alliance is doing, all of that is to underpin a really clear statement of credible capability that is being invested in and advanced.
And we have an obligation as professional military, maritime military leaders but no different to our fellow chiefs, to be demonstrating integrated international collaborative capability that is increasing and maturing and developing and, therefore, representing that challenges to what we do will be met robustly and, actually, therefore, the deterrence narrative is as important if not more so in creating space for peaceful resolution to be found as it is that we are also demonstrating that we are prepared to fight if that is what our political leadership and the national interest requires.
And I think sometimes in the narrative of, you know, we could be at war in three years' time, you lose the point that, actually, we don't want to be; what we want to do is to deter that opportunity. But you don't deter by stepping back from the challenges; you deter by stepping and leaning into them.
ROB SCOTT: And just picking up on the deterrence factor you mentioned there one of the greatest challenges to realising the delivery of the nuclear-powered submarines is the development and refinement of the SSN-AUKUS design and the development of an integrated build strategy. Where is that up to?
MARK HAMMOND: You're the lead.
BEN KEY: So one of the things about when you set out on a multi-decade strategic activity is that a number of people want all the answers now. And by its very nature, there are a number of phases to the optimal pathway, the first of which is SRF-West being available and demonstrating that we can operate nuclear submarines from here. The second, which I know has been hugely invested in, is there in Australia operating sovereign Virginia-class. And the third phase of that SSN-AUKUS.
And so it's not surprising that whilst a number of key decisions have been made around choices of combat system and choices of reactor and the like, there is still a lot of work going on in the design and maturing of the capability that we will build. Now, we can't sit and wait years and years and years and sort of pontificate about that because there is a number of long-lead items that need to be procured. Some of the reactor decisions are already absolutely confirmed and now in long-term production. But I'm confident that the work that's going on, the way that the choices are being rigorously examined and slowly down-collected against the timeline that we need to meet will ensure that SSN-AUKUS arrives on time delivering just the capabilities we require and crewed either by UK crews or Australian crews or very probably a mixture of both, because we will be so integrated by then that it will almost just be a natural thing of what we're doing.
But I would just offer that point: SSN-AUKUS is not going to arrive for a number of years yet. So the fact that we can't tell you exactly where every tap is going to be placed on board, it shouldn't be a matter of concern. We do know though, because we've got significant experience between these two nations building nuclear submarines, what decisions need to be made and when. And those are being advanced at the tempo that's required.
MARK HAMMOND: I'm relaxed now, Rob. How about you?
ROB SCOTT: Nothing to add?
MARK HAMMOND: Look, it's one of the most complex machines that mankind builds, you know. And there's a right time to lockdown key technology decisions. And I don't want the 2024 best sonar of the day; I want the best sonar available in the 2040s when the first ship comes online. So there are some decisions you want to make at the last safe moment whilst preserving the design space throughout the early years.
What's more pressing for me is Henderson consolidation to enable the SSN sustainment activities here in Western Australia and the design of the shipyard to build SSN-AUKUS over in Adelaide, which is great opportunity, frankly, with a greenfield site to potentially build the best shipyard in the world for building nuclear‑powered submarines based upon the lessons identified and lived by our partner navies here.
So I think Ben is absolutely right - there's a right time and a place to be talking about the maturity of design of SSN-AUKUS. But this program has phases for a good reason.
ROB SCOTT: Probably our last question - we've only got a minute or so left - but Admiral Lisa, to you, what does Australia and WA in particular need to be doing more of to make sure that AUKUS is successful?
LISA FRANCHETTI: Yep, well, again, this is my first opportunity to visit here. And I was really impressed with the level of commitment, with a good understanding of the path forward for SRF-West and beyond. And, again, I'm really encouraged by all of the conversations, really, at every level from local, federal, navy, navies and talking about the things very transparently, candidly and openly about what we need to do to make it successful.
So, again, what they could do more is continue more of that conversation because building together an integrated team that is going to take us forward over the many challenges that we'll have to face, move through them, move on and get on to the next one, I think having that integrated long-term team and doing more of what we're doing right now is going to make us successful in the future.
MARK HAMMOND: Totally.
ROB SCOTT: An enlightening conversation. Thank you very much to all three of you. Round of applause, thanks.
