Patrick Gorman MP on ABC Perth Drive With Adshead

GARY ADSHEAD, HOST: And it is just about 20 minutes to five right here on ABC Drive. And I've got in the studio with me a couple of guys that are probably glad to get out of the heat when it comes to doorknocking. Dean Smith, the WA Liberal Senator, thanks for coming in.

DEAN SMITH, LIBERAL SENATOR FOR WESTERN AUSTRALIA: Great to be back, Gary.

ADSHEAD: Good on you. And Patrick Gorman, of course, the Labor Member for Perth, and also Assistant Minister to the Prime Minister. Patrick, welcome to the ABC studio.

PATRICK GORMAN, ASSISTANT MINISTER TO THE PRIME MINISTER: Good to be here, Gary.

ADSHEAD: Yeah, doorknocking I mean, I bet you look at the forecast and think, 'can we just park a bit of doorknocking today and maybe do it next week when it cools down?' What's the sort of program that goes through your guys' mind when you're having to do that - particularly you, I'd say, Patrick?

GORMAN: I do a fair bit of doorknocking, and I like getting out there. But you always want to know, are people going to think that I'm a little bit mad if I'm out door knocking in this heat? And I reckon that's sort of at about 37, 38 degrees is kind of the threshold where people start to think you're a little bit too obsessed, rather than passionate.

ADSHEAD: And it's probably a bit uncomfortable standing at the door, having to talk to people as well, isn't it? Dean, in this sort of heat?

SMITH: It is. Well, Gary, if Patrick was to doorknock on my door, I'd invite him in, have a coffee -

ADSHEAD: Brilliant.

GORMAN: He'd slow me down.

SMITH: Exactly right. So you sort of didn't get onto too many doors.

ADSHEAD: He'd stay for dinner! Alright, hey, yeah, thanks for coming in. 1300 222 720, it's called 'The Campaign.' But if you want to have your say, if you've got a question for either of the two guests that are in the studio, feel free to give us a call. Alright, let's, let's just start with inflation, it's starting to to get to the sort of figures now where surely the RBA will move on it. Is that a concern for you, Dean Smith, that we're down around 2.4% headline figure, and that might be the springboard that the Albanese Government needs to call the election?

SMITH: Well, actually, that's a very, very interesting point, because I thought you were going to ask me, Gary, about what the RBA might choose to do now, in regards to -

ADSHEAD: Absolutely.

SMITH: - when it meets on the 17th or 18th of February, I'd say this: there are two figures that the ABS released today. The figure that the government is talking about, but then what we call the 'trimmed mean inflation rate.' That's the inflation figure that the RBA is guided by, and the RBA prefers to talk about, and it's important because it strips away some of the rebate relief that people might have seen through energy relief measures of the government. And what that figure points to is not much change at all. It still sits outside the two to three per cent band that the RBA is looking for. The key point here is one of sustainability. We have not yet seen sustainable falls in the inflation rate in that two to three per cent band, until that happens, unfortunately, I doubt there will be sustainable rate relief for mortgage holders. And it's interesting, I think the government has been very measured today in not celebrating this too much, being pleased with themselves, but not celebrating too much, because I think we still have a long way to go on this.

ADSHEAD: Tracking the right way, though, isn't it, Patrick?

GORMAN: Well, I'm not celebrating for the government, but I do think this is good news for Australian households. What we know is that inflation is ultimately a tax on those on low and middle incomes. Inflation erodes the living standards of the Australian people, and that's why one of the Reserve Bank of Australia's jobs is to fight inflation. It's also why we've had two budgets that have done exactly the same thing, working to put downward pressure on inflation. And what we know is that for people in my community and across this state, when you had inflation at 6% under the Liberals, when they left office, that people were really starting to feel that pain. And we were seeing prices really go up rapidly. What we've been able to do over time in a careful, measured way - because you can't stop inflation, one day to the next. You have got to work at it over time. We do sensible things to make sure we take pressure off inflation. And it's an achievement of the Australian people to get down to 2.4%.

ADSHEAD: Yeah, I think interesting. I mean, so we're now at where most Western countries are in terms of inflation, and some are actually lower than us already. And of course, their banks had moved in terms of interest rates. It would be seen, and I know I'm not asking you really to comment on the RBA, but it would be seen as extremely stubborn of them to hold the line come February when they meet again, wouldn't it?

SMITH: Well, not necessarily. And Patrick and I are not going to sort of start to run a commentary about what the RBA should do, but this is one data set in a number of data sets that the RBA will be forced to consider when it next meets. But it's not as if Australians have gone, or West Australians have woken up this morning feeling much lighter about the cost of living challenges that they are experiencing, not at all. And when we think about the macroeconomic conditions, not much has changed. Productivity has fallen by 5.7% under this government, annual GDP growth has slowed to 1991 levels. We're in per capita negative growth in terms of GDP. So the broad economic figures are nothing for the government.

GORMAN: What's happening with real wages, Dean? Tell people about real wages.

SMITH: Real wages in Western Australia increased by 13.9%, but the annual inflation rate for Perth over that same period increased by 18% so that's the comparator, and I know that. I know that because that was research that I did, supported by the Parliamentary Library, released in the newspapers over the Christmas break. So real wage increases matter only in the context -

GORMAN: People's wages are going up because of measures that this government introduced.

SMITH: - of ages of inflationary increases. So, what we have seen, what we have seen is wage growth not keeping up with inflationary pressures. That's why West Australians feel poorer and when they look around them, when they look around them, they know they are poorer now than they were two and a half years ago.

ADSHEAD: Alright, now, clearly Western Australia. I mean, what we saw on the weekend with the Prime Minister and of course, Peter Dutton, here, and I don't know if you say 'launching' the campaign, but certainly paying a fair bit of attention to WA. Where does it sit now in terms of your coalition, getting the keys to The Lodge right now, Dean?

SMITH: Well, we're not taking anything for granted. The election has not been formally called yet. Every vote will matter. And we've got some fantastic candidates spread out across Western Australia, Tom White in Curtin.

ADSHEAD: Can you win that?

SMITH: I think we are working very, very hard, -

ADSHEAD: - Because you have to, right?

SMITH: We have to. And Tom White is the right person to be the next Liberal Member for Curtin. First class individual, comes to the role with a tremendous amount of experience. Six hundred people came out and supported him on Monday afternoon in rather very humid conditions down at the Claremont Showground. So we have done very, very well in endorsing the right candidate at the right time for a seat like Curtin. And I think that if you - people will understand in Curtin that if you want to change the government, then you need to elect Tom White.

ADSHEAD: Alright, can I just ask you, Patrick, how does it feel for you, this election campaign? Compare it to Scott Morrison when you were up against Scott Morrison and the sentiment that was there then? I'm still sometimes trying to figure out whether it was about him when we saw what we what occurred in the Teals, or whether it was about climate change largely. But how does this one compare to three years ago, so far?

GORMAN: Well, I think what you've got is that in 2022 people had figured out Scott Morrison. They knew that he wasn't on our side. I'll accept that people are still having a look at Peter Dutton, trying to figure out, 'okay, if this guy's got a chance of being Prime Minister, what's he actually going to do?' And then when you kind of look at the playbook of what they're planning, you've got nuclear power down in Collie, sometime in 25 years. You've got cuts about 1700 public servants from Western Australia, out on the unemployment queues. You're going to close Medicare Urgent Care Clinics across the state. I think when people take a closer look, and that's what I'd encourage all of your listeners to do, and take a closer look at us too, but I think if we take a closer look, it'd be very hard for anyone who thought Scott Morrison shouldn't be Prime Minister. It's very hard for them to come to the conclusion that Peter Dutton would be better. Because even, I mean, we even had, I remember back when they were fighting it out over the leadership, you had Scott Morrison and Malcolm Turnbull, and those two didn't agree on much, but they agreed that Peter Dutton was not -

ADSHEAD: - He's very good on message, though, isn't he?

SMITH: - Patrick, a reminder, a gentle reminder, 2025 is where we are now. 2025 will be the election. Yeah, I think I'm very confident that people are looking at Peter Dutton now because they are hugely displeased, disappointed that Anthony Albanese has not lived up to their expectations. In addition to that, Peter Dutton has been a very, very competent leader, bringing to some very, very real challenges in our country, the experience of his leadership. And I'm greatly encouraged that West Australians are looking at Peter Dutton, and I think many of them are seeing all of the skills and competency of an alternative Prime Minister. And indeed, we hope the next prime minister.

ADSHEAD: Might come back to that. I've just got Patty on the line, now it's a question. I think it's about forests here in Western Australia. Hey, Patty.

PATTY, CALLER ON THE LINE: Hi, and thanks for taking my call. Yeah. My question is that Australia has, with 139 other countries, pledged at the United Nations to end and reverse deforestation by 2030 and in WA we have the most biodiverse temperate forest in the world, the jarrah forest. Will there be a plan to transition Alcoa out of that forest? Who haven't in the 60 years they've been there, rehabilitated even one hectare to government standards?

ADSHEAD: Well, that's the Greens' policy, isn't it, in terms of Alcoa and phasing out the strip mining that we've seen up in the hills around the Darling Scarp and others? Is it? I mean, I know that it's been a state matter in terms of dealing with some of the concerns about Alcoa, but is strip mining at all on your radar in terms of ending? Either of you?

SMITH: In this, in this matter, Patty, I'll have to answer in the broad.

ADSHEAD: Go on, then.

SMITH: In the broad, my apologies, but you know, I'm someone who believes in, the Coalition believes that we can find sustainable management between forest conservation and mining. When we travel across the South West of our state, as someone who traveled around the state as a kid a lot, travel around there as an adult now, I think we have managed our state forest very, very well. While at the same time also ensuring that there's a strong and prosperous mining sector that generates wealth for our state and jobs for West Australians. I think we are always looking for the better balance. And I think that we can, we can maintain that careful balance.

ADSHEAD: Patrick, I mean, is it something on your on your radar at all? I mean, it's not the it's just that issue that Alcoa for 60 years, given state agreements to go all the way back to when we're before we were talking about climate change, before we talking about tree canopies, etc, they just continue strip mining up there.

GORMAN: Well, I'm conscious that when you've got a number of these companies and they have proposals in front of government, it's not for me to sort of put a view out there, when you've got ministers at different points in time assessing different applications from various companies. What I would say is it was Labor who ended old growth logging in Western Australia. When it comes to protecting our environment and our climate, it was Labor that introduced Net Zero commitment in law by 2050, we did that just two years ago. I'll always look for practical ways to make sure that we can protect our environment, but also give - and when it comes to our core and other mining companies here in Western Australia - give the world the minerals and the resources they need to do the transition to Net Zero. And I think we always have to be really careful about saying, 'well, we don't want to do any of it here in Western Australia.' That's not a sustainable proposition. And neither is it sustainable for our us economically, but it's not sustainable for the world environmentally. And so I think we've got a role to play in sort of bringing forward those resources that people need. But also, what I see from a range of companies when I speak to them in Canberra and Perth is that they are looking at ways of decarbonising and making their operations much more sustainable, including much better replanting and decommissioning responsibilities than we've had in the past. I think that's a good thing.

ADSHEAD: Now, one thing that's happened in WA that you would have seen in the last few days was, you know, we had the hot weather. Then we had some drizzle rain. We had pole top fires, left, right and centre. We had lots of outages. We've seen agriculture crops just gone. What was in cold storage gone, because they couldn't keep the the air conditioning and the cooling systems on. It's 2025, we've got both the Labor and and Coalition coming into town with $350 million or whatever the case may be, to widen the freeway and blah, blah, blah. What about a federal commitment to try and help end this bizarre thing that happens in Western Australia all too easily? And that is that we get a slight bit of rain after a dry period, and the power all goes out, and people lose their stock in their fridge, their business livelihoods, etcetera. Why can't we put some money into that? Because clearly whatever's happening with Western Power is not keeping up the maintenance.

GORMAN: Alright. Well, firstly, for small business owners who are listening today, Gary, I'd say there are federal programs that help small businesses who want to get a federal grant, a competitive grants program, to help them go to forms of energy and self sustainability when it comes to batteries and their own forms of power. That is one of the things we're seeing more and more businesses do, and that's a good thing. When it comes to the big infrastructure stuff that we are doing, we've supported through the capacity investment mechanism, further battery investments that are based down in Collie to make sure that we have more redundancy in our grid, because that is what we need when we're going to have these, we know, greater variations in the energy demand. That's one of the solutions. And there's the $3 billion commitment that we've made to the state government that we put in our first budget, which is for Rewiring Western Australia. That's all about investing in energy infrastructure. Now, is that going to change what's happened over the last two days? No, because transforming our energy grids to make them more resilient is going to take time -

ADSHEAD: We should have done this a long time ago. We've been knowing about these pole top fires that seem to cause mayhem, you know, intermittently over the years, for a very long time, and it doesn't seem like we've really got on top of it. There might be some money to be thrown at that. I know you're big on not wasting food at the moment in terms of charity organisations. I know it's a bit of a weird segue, but I mean, it's true, isn't it? You've got, you've got some points you wanted to make on that, I know?

SMITH: Absolutely, Gary, so next week, when we return to the Senate, the Senate will be debating my Private Senator's Bill. It's a tax incentive bill that will allow businesses and agricultural producers who want to make food donations to food charities. It'll give them a tax incentive to do so.

ADSHEAD: Right, so like, OzHarvest or Food Bank? Whatever the case -

SMITH: So, we've just gotten through Christmas, lots of publicity, lots of publicity in regards to the stress that many charities were experiencing. Many, many charities not having enough food to give to worthy families. So this is an initiative that's been floating around, I've got to say, for a couple of years, supported by over 60 organisations, including Food Bank, the National Farmers' Federation. So I've taken that idea, worked it up into some legislation. We'll debate it in the Senate next week.

ADSHEAD: Haven't got long, so you can get it through? Are you on board with that? Do you think? On the outside looking at that?

GORMAN: Food relief and food support for people is incredibly important. We know that too many people are relying on those services right now, and I want to give a shout out, as I'm sure Dean does, to the OzHarvest crew who are just down the road, around the corner from here at the ABC Perth studios.

SMITH: Yeah, they are, yep, yep.

GORMAN: The government's taken the view is that the best way to support those food relief programs is to give them cash. That's what we've been doing for the last two years, so they can get the food and supplies that they need for the customers that they serve -

SMITH: - So, Gary, just in case you didn't hear that, Patrick is saying that the Labor Government will not support my Private Senator's Bill that is supported by Food Bank and OzHarvest and SecondBite and the National Farmers' Federation, other organisations -

ADSHEAD: It wouldn't cost the taxpayer much, would it?

GORMAN: Dean, if you want to go through all the bills that you haven't supported, you've opposed legislation to give aged care workers fair pay, you've opposed legislation to -

SMITH: - I, I think this is a really good idea Patrick -

GORMAN: Let me go, you opposed Fee-Free TAFE -

ADSHEAD: - Alright, well it sounds like a good idea on the surface to me, but - um -

GORMAN: You guys, for a while, opposed tax cuts for people on less than $80,000 -

ADSHEAD: - Right, okay -

GORMAN: - You opposed cheaper childcare!

ADSHEAD: - Well, maybe you guys can have a chat off air about that one. Let's see whether there is a compromise. Now then, of course, you are listening to ABC Drive with Gary Adshead. In the in the studio, I've got Dean Smith, Liberal Senator and I've got Patrick Gorman, the Member for Perth, and we've still got some time for, maybe one or two calls 1300 222 720, what I want to ask you, though, is, I mean, can we move on from this sort of stuff? Where, obviously, the Prime Minister is asked by an FM radio station to draw an image that he sort of sees in Peter Dutton, and he draws, literally, a, I don't know, a rock or a potato with eyes, and that's it? And then the sort of the the comeback from Peter Dutton was a picture of Albo's retirement home somewhere on a clifftop in New South Wales with a message saying, 'enjoy your retirement.' I mean, come on. Doesn't the public deserve better than that, you two?

GORMAN: I don't know, Gary, are you just angry that they're talking to FM radio stations, rather than AM?

ADSHEAD: Oh, hang on!

GORMAN: Is this a demarcation dispute here?

ADSHEAD: We get our fair share. I tell you what, I wonder why they do talk to FM stations as much as they do, though.

GORMAN: I'll just say, for anyone who saw that coverage, either on Tiktok, Instagram or The West Australian, aren't we lucky that we elect people based on their policies rather than their artistic ability?

ADSHEAD: Definitely.

GORMAN: Because I think our country would be be in a lot of trouble.

ADSHEAD: Are you a good, are you a good artist? By the way, either of you two? Because, quite frankly, the two leaders are rubbish.

GORMAN: I can't keep up with my four-year-old.

ADSHEAD: Alright, okay.

SMITH: I do think, though, I do think electors do deserve a bit of theatre in their politics, right?

ADSHEAD: A little bit.

SMITH: Occasionally. We don't want it on the front page of The West Australian every day, I don't think. If that doesn't get me into trouble, but a bit of theatre is important.

ADSHEAD: Last question for you, because we're running out of time, are you downloading the DeepSeek app on your phone, Patrick Gorman and Dean Smith?

GORMAN: No I'm not, definitely not, not going on my phone, not coming anywhere in my household.

ADSHEAD: Do you envisage, you know, politically, that that becomes taboo in terms of politicians? What do you think?

SMITH: I think that's where we're heading. It's very, very clear. Well, I think there's an this is an important opportunity to say to your listeners, your personal information is really, really valuable, and it's very, very important to you, so exercise great caution when you are putting it into various devices. I think the government has been very, very clear that people should act with great caution when it comes to DeepSeek. I was talking to my team about this this morning. I said, 'Oh, but why don't we use Perplexity?'

ADSHEAD: Go on.

SMITH: And they looked at me -

ADSHEAD: - perplexed. Well, go on.

SMITH: To those who haven't used it, it's it's an interesting tool. I discovered it in the United States a few months ago, and it's really powerful and impressive and safe.

ADSHEAD: Well, I think when you've got an open source AI, and you can't ask it 'what happened in Tiananmen Square,' we should all be concerned about it. So there you go. Hey, gentlemen, thanks very much for coming in.

GORMAN: Thanks Gary.