Patrick Gorman MP Talks on Sky News Afternoon Agenda 16 December

TOM CONNELL, HOST: Well, all right, it's been a big political year, 2024. It's only going to get bigger, of course, we're only a few months out from the election. Let's get a final hit out from my favourite panel. I'm not going to speak for the nation, necessarily, but Assistant Minister to the Prime Minister, Patrick Gorman and former Liberal MP Jason Falinksi. Gentlemen, thank you both for your time. We're in a slightly reflective mood. Let's just get a little bit of policy out of the way, and then have a bit of fun, maybe. Pat, I know you've been itching to see this nuclear policy from the Coalition. It's been unveiled. One of your big criticisms has been, what will happen to power prices in the first term? You know, does it help? Is that a bit hard for Labor to be asking about when the big promise from Chris Bowen, it's not going to happen. The $275 off power bills, it's not going to happen.

PATRICK GORMAN, ASSISTANT MINISTER TO THE PRIME MINISTER: Well, that was an outcome that was projecting based on what we knew and what we didn't know was there'd been secret deals or secret decisions made by the Coalition Government when they were in government in 2022 to up power prices for the National Energy Market. Thankfully, they don't have that control here in the West. So we've got our own energy grid, an energy grid that was completely forgotten in the nuclear plan that was released on Friday. Now what I think everyone knows is that if you read any credible reports, nuclear power in 2024 is one of the most expensive forms of energy, and it will take more than a decade to build not the entire set of power plants that have been promised, but just to build the first one. So if you want a plan to get power prices down, you need to back renewables firmed by battery storage and gas. That's what we're doing. It is the best way forward. And for many families, and indeed, in my electorate, they got an extra $350 off their power bill in the December billing cycle because of the work that we've done to make sure that families in Western Australia get energy bill relief now.

CONNELL: That's all that GST money we're sending over. Me and Jason write out the cheques every month, it's killing us. Jason, let me ask you, on this policy, as someone who, you know, no longer a member, you don't have to worry about that sort of stuff, were you genuinely surprised that a big part of the Coalition's plan is 40% less energy compared to Labor? I know they're both AEMO estimates, but it seems to me that they're really banking on less energy use. If that doesn't happen, I'm not sure what Plan B is.

JASON FALINSKI, FORMER LIBERAL MP FOR MACKELLAR: Well, Tom, the reason for that is, is that if you're using renewables and you want to have reliable power, you need to overproduce power, and then, of course, you need to shift it round to places where the wind is blowing and the sun is isn't shining -

CONNELL: No, but this is just how much energy will be needed in the country.

FALINSKI: - and that of course is the giant disparity between costs.

CONNELL: That, actually -

FALINSKI: Yeah, no, no, that's right Tom. So I think, what? Yeah, no, no, that's right, because if you have dispatchable power, that power you need less of. So that's the reason why -

CONNELL: - No, no, no, okay, no. That's one aspect -

FALINSKI: You find that, you need to produce less power -

CONNELL: This is that there'll be less demand in the country. There are two options. There's the progressive and the step guide. AEMO says, 'pick your option,' and the Coalition has chosen the one with 40% less. You can forget what source it is. It's 40% less demand for energy. Does that surprise you? The Coalition's assuming that will happen?

FALINSKI: No, I think that we're just using the assumptions that the Government is using, and we're trying to get a level playing field in these assumptions. I mean, you know, Tom what we've seen in the last few years as you've pointed out -

GORMAN: It's not a level playing field, Jason, you've taken two different assumptions. It's not a level playing field. You've taken an assumption for Labor's policy, the Liberal Party's taken a very different assumption.

FALINSKI: We've taken the same -

GORMAN: No, you haven't. And even the people who are backing your plan -

FALINSKI: Hang on, do these assumptions, Patrick, Patrick, Patrick, do these assumptions come from AEMO?

GORMAN: But they're two different projected energy use scenarios.

FALINSKI: The answer is, they do. They come from, they come from the Government's market operator. Well, of course, they're two different ones. We're just using the assumptions that you're using. We're using them. Tom's question is, am I surprised they're using the doing the lower assumption, there would be a basis for them doing that -

CONNELL: You've taken the option of a lot less energy use, including EVs not getting the take up that Labor is predicting. So what's surprising about that is that that seems to be the Coalition banking on that, on less energy. Whereas, I don't know, AI takes off, and who knows what else, and data centres, green hydrogen is a big one. Maybe that doesn't take off, but if it does, I don't see that we'll have enough energy.

FALINSKI: I mean, at the moment, green hydrogen doesn't look like it's taking off, even Twiggy Forrest has wound back most of his investment in that despite his rhetoric. Yes, I agree with you on the on the EV point, I only see us picking up or buying more EVs, not less EVs. So that would be a big issue. In terms of data centres, as latency improves, I suspect most data centres will continue to be located overseas, but you can't count on that. And of course, Tom, that's the big issue, which we all need to get our heads around, which is predicting the future five years ahead is difficult. And when Labor tried to predict the future three years ahead, back in 2022, as Patrick has admitted, they got the assumptions massively wrong. And that doesn't mean that either side is right, we're just having our best guess -

CONNELL: He kind of admitted that. Look, right, there's a bit of both there. Coalition clearly delayed the increase announcement, but Labor wouldn't have hit it anyway. There we go. You've both got one there. Let's move on. Let's get to the less serious bit. I asked you both for funny moments. Now this one Jason actually selected. He tried to handball it to Pat because it made more sense, because it was Mark Speakman. He was on 2GB. He's struggling a bit in the polling against Chris Minns, and this was him, not quite pleading, but hoping he'd get a more regular spot next year on the program. Let's have a listen in.

[RECORDED SEGMENT FROM 2GB]

BEN FORDHAM, HOST: Okay, I've also suggested that next time if you hear Chris Minns on this radio show and you think he's spinning BS, call in and call him out.

MARK SPEAKMAN, LIBERAL LEADER OF THE NSW OPPOSITION: Well, I'd hoped, I'd hope to be on your program regularly next year, I'd like to be here once a fortnight. And let's see we can do that after Christmas.

FORDHAM: You want to be here once a fortnight?

SPEAKMAN: Yeah, if you'll have me.

FORDHAM: You've got to be a bit more interesting.

SPEAKMAN: Well, look, you want me to come along and tell a few jokes? I can do that. But I think the people of New South Wales are more interested in balancing their budget at the moment.