Subjects: Middle East ceasefire deal and hostage agreement; Visit to Israel; Antisemitic attacks
KYLIE MORRIS: Australia's Attorney-General Mark Dreyfus travelled to Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories earlier this week ahead of the announcement of a ceasefire, and his trip comes amid tensions between the Albanese Government and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu over Australia's position in several UN votes. Mark Dreyfus joins me now from Tel Aviv. Good morning and welcome to Radio National Breakfast.
ATTORNEY-GENERAL MARK DREYFUS: Good morning, Kylie. Great to be with you.
MORRIS: 24 hours ago there was a ceasefire deal, but we now know it will be tomorrow morning, local time, before that deal is made official by the Israeli cabinet. Do you fully understand the delay? What are people telling you?
ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Well, in the last three days, I've met with a whole range of officials. I've met in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem with the President of Israel, the Deputy Prime Minister, the Foreign Minister, the Assistant Foreign Minister and the Attorney-General. In Ramallah I've met with senior officials of the Palestinian Authority. And I think that there is real optimism that this ceasefire deal will come off, that it will come into effect. And of course, once it does, that will open the way for the return of the hostages and for increased humanitarian assistance. It's not done until it's done. The Israeli cabinet is due to meet in quite possibly the next few hours and have yet to sign off. But there is an expectation, there's an optimism that this is going to happen.
MORRIS: You mentioned you've met with families of hostages this week. What did they tell you about how this crisis has unfolded for them personally over these past 16 months?
ATTORNEY-GENERAL: These are deeply moving stories because they start with the shocking events of the massacre on October the 7th, murders and violence that took place on that day, and the hostage taking that took place on that day, with still almost 100 hostages still in Gaza. The hostage families have been very vocal. You can't go anywhere in Israel without seeing signs, posters. There are daily demonstrations in Tel Aviv and other places in Israel. And their concern, of course, as has Australia's been that there be return of the hostages and as soon as possible. Initially 33 hostages, I think, are to be released as part of an exchange with Palestinian prisoners being held in Israel.
MORRIS: Did the people you meet, the families you met, have any insights as to whether it is their relatives who'll be among that first group?
ATTORNEY-GENERAL: There's some indication of who will be in the first group. There's also obviously a wish that all of the hostages should be returned, but that appears not to be the proposed deal. It is going to be in stages. And that, of course, will create ongoing anxiety for those whose family members are not being returned. It has been a dreadful situation now for well over 400 days, and it continues to be a dreadful situation. But there's real optimism that the ceasefire is going to come into effect and with that, we'll see the return of hostages
MORRIS: You've also met with the Israeli Foreign Minister, not Benjamin Netanyahu himself, but you've seen the Foreign Minister and spoken with them. Do you have a sense that the Israeli Government is sincere now in wanting this ceasefire and in driving through the arrangements so that it will hold across Israel?
ATTORNEY-GENERAL: There's overwhelming support for a ceasefire. And that's been reflected in the meetings that I've had with Israeli government ministers. It's something that has been raised in every single meeting, not just the meetings I've had with ministers, but with agency heads with whom I've also been meeting. Everywhere you go, everything you see, there's expectation and support for a ceasefire.
MORRIS: After the 15 months of conflict, the federal government has played down tensions with Benjamin Netanyahu, who has accused Australia of having an extreme anti-Israel position. Did you sense any of that tension in your meetings?
ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I've been warmly welcomed in all of the meetings that I've had. There's been a very strong friendship between our countries since Israel was founded by the United Nations. And what I've felt in all of the meetings is that we should be strengthening that already strong relationship between Australia and Israel. Israeli ministers have, of course, raised some issues, but in a very constructive way.
MORRIS: Police here in Sydney are investigating another antisemitic vandalism attack in Dover Heights. How hopeful are you that a ceasefire might reduce tensions here at home?
ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Of course I'm hopeful, Kylie. The recent rise in antisemitism that we've seen over the last year has been the worst that I've seen in my lifetime, and it's been shocking. The Albanese Government has pulled all of the levers it can to combat this scourge in Australia. But it's rightly called the world's oldest hatred. It's hard to stamp it out. One thing that I think would help is that if politicians in Australia, in our country, stopped the kind of divisive and damaging rhetoric that we have seen, which I think has added to social discord, it's time for that to stop. The ceasefire here in Israel should signal, and I hope it does, it should signal the end to grotesque exploitation of the conflict by politicians in Australia. Now, more than ever, we need unity and political point scoring has only fuelled more social discord at home. We've seen unacceptable and abhorrent anti-Semitic attacks, something that should cause all Australians to stand together and say, "No more!" It's not a time for political point scoring.
MORRIS: The rebuild of Gaza, Mark, will be long and expensive. How much should the international community, including Australia, be willing to put toward the reconstruction?
ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Well, it's clear that it has to be an international effort. Australia has made it clear that there's no role for Hamas in the future government of Gaza. One of the matters which I raised with the senior officials of the Palestinian Authority, with whom I met, was the preparedness of the Palestinian Authority to take over the government of Gaza. They do have plans. Those plans include assistance from Arab countries, from countries in the region. They're looking for some kind of international effort. Obviously, the details of that are still being worked out, but the ceasefire is the first step. That's what's needed in order for the long, what will be, the long task of reconstruction in Gaza, to enable that to commence.
MORRIS: Benjamin Netanyahu, the former Defence Minister Yoav Gallant, and senior Hamas leaders all face arrest warrants from the ICC for crimes against humanity and war crimes. Those warrants were issued in November. Does a ceasefire change anything? Mark Dreyfus, or is the ICC within its rights to continue to pursue those warrants?
ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Australia is a state party to the Treaty of Rome. We respect the role of the ICC. We're not a party to this proceeding involving Israeli ministers, and I'm not going to speculate, particularly as Attorney-General, I am not going to speculate on those arrest warrants at any level.
MORRIS: Finally, in your meetings with the Israeli Government, are you raising the killing of Australian aid worker Zomi Frankcom? I'm wondering, are you advocating for answers for her family as to how and why the car that she was travelling in inside Gaza was targeted by an Israeli strike in April?
ATTORNEY-GENERAL: We've already had an investigation carried out by former Air Chief Marshal Binskin, former CDF from Australia, and the ongoing investigation of that matter in Israel is something that I have raised in discussions with ministers.
MORRIS: Attorney-General Mark Dreyfus, thank you so much for joining us on Radio National Breakfast.
ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Thanks very much, Kylie.
