Minister for Finance, Minister for Women, Minister for the Public Service
ROSS SOLLY, HOST: Just before we came off air yesterday morning, we told you that Prime Minister Anthony Albanese had announced his reshuffle. I had to do a double take, because the first thing I was told was that ACT Senator Katy Gallagher had managed to get herself a new portfolio and I thought, that can't be right, because she's already got about 26 of them. But yes indeed, she's had Government Services added to Finance, Public Service, Women and a whole heap of other things. Senator Katy Gallagher joins us this morning. Good morning, Senator.
SENATOR THE HON KATY GALLAGHER, MINISTER FOR FINANCE: Good morning, Ross. How are you?
SOLLY: Did you ask for this, or what the heck? How did this happen?
GALLAGHER: How did this happen? Well, as you know, Bill Shorten has resigned and so that created a vacancy. I think in these jobs, Ross, if your boss asks you to do something, you know, like take on a new portfolio, the answer is always yes. And there are some really good synergies between particularly Finance, Public Service and Government Services.
SOLLY: Well there are, and I see that, Katy Gallagher, but you've also got Finance. You've got Women, you've got a few other things in there as well. There does come to a point, though, does there not, when you could suggest that maybe you or others, you're maybe being spread a bit too thinly here?
GALLAGHER: Well, I'm used to being busy. So, I always look at new opportunities as an opportunity to do more, to look at how we can improve services and delivery of payments, supports to people, how I can align some of the digital work I'm doing in Finance. So, there really are some great opportunities and I'm really thrilled. I've got a great team that backs me up. It's not just me, I've got a great office, and of course there's a very capable and well-resourced public service to help out as well.
SOLLY: And of course, it does add to - I know you're doing a bit of a tour this week trying to convince the rest of the nation that, in fact, public service jobs are important. How is that going over? Because it does seem, does it not, that this is going to be a bit of a battleground, especially in this part of the world, during the federal election?
GALLAGHER: Yeah, I definitely think it will be. I mean, the Opposition are making it clear they want to cut 36,000 jobs. About a third of those would come from Canberra but two thirds would come from outside the ACT. And so, earlier in the week, I was down in Tasmania outside Sorell Centrelink, or Services Australia, centre. A very busy centre. And this was a new centre that we've staffed with the additional resources going into the public service and places like that would shut. So, I think it is important, I'm not going to vacate the field and just let the Opposition demonise the public service. It was under-resourced and ill-equipped when we came to government. We've spent the last two and a half years trying to address that. We've got it to the right point and now I think that's under threat.
SOLLY: Yeah, I mean the argument though will be, just because we have a bigger public service now, has it become more efficient? And I've already seen arguments this week from the Opposition that you're still waiting longer than the average TV show to get through to a lot of government services like Centrelink. It takes you more than half an hour. So maybe, Katy Gallagher, the problem's not the number of public servants but just how efficient they are.
GALLAGHER: Well, I definitely think that we are able to continue to improve efficiencies. I think that's something government services always have to focus on. But we are seeing improvements in times and we are seeing improvements in processing payments. And in areas like Veterans' Affairs - I mean, this is what the Opposition don't like to talk about - a 44,000 backlog in Veterans' Affairs cleared under this government. If you have people able to do the job, you will improve your services. And the other thing they don't like to talk about is they had about 50,000 people off the books in a shadow workforce that was labour hire or contractors, and we are rebalancing that because we think these jobs - good jobs - should be done by the public service, not by external people. So, it will be a battlefield, Ross.
SOLLY: But it's a tough sell, though. I mean, we've discussed this many times, Senator. But outside of Canberra - I went back to Western Australia for Christmas and it is hard to convince people outside of Canberra that public servants are that necessary and they are useful. And it's interesting you've set off on this trip around the country to try and convince people that they are. It is a tough sell, and there are going to be a lot of people who are going to be cheering for people who say the public service needs to be more efficient and maybe less of taxpayers' money should be going towards the public service.
GALLAGHER: I guess the question is, do people value government services? I think you'd be hard pressed to find an Australian who doesn't have contact with the Federal Government, whether it be through the tax system, Medicare, or through payments and other types of programs. And sometimes - and this is why the Opposition always try to kick Canberra on the way through - they say we're going to cut 36,000 Canberra-based public servants. What they don't say, because they know people value it, is that two thirds of the new jobs have been in regional and other parts of Australia. And they don't say it, because they know people care about it, and that'd be a problem for them. And so, part of my job is to educate people about what that means.
SOLLY: Thirteen to eight on ABC Canberra Breakfast, my guest is Senator Katy Gallagher, who managed to have another portfolio added to her list yesterday. Just in Finance areas, Katy Gallagher, reports today that the Commonwealth Bank is asking the Reserve Bank to scrap all surcharges on debit and credit card payments. I know that, apparently - I think it's the policy of your government to remove surcharges on debit card payments. Do you think that it does make sense to remove all surcharges on debit and credit card payments?
GALLAGHER: We've certainly made it clear that we are prepared to ban it on credit cards, subject to this work that the Reserve Bank is doing. Because debit cards are essentially cash. It's your money, it's already there, it's a transaction, if you were paying cash for it, you wouldn't get a surcharge. So, that's on debit cards. The RBA's work, and I think they're due to release a paper in the next few days, is really to look at how this system has evolved over time and look at where I think the pain points are. We know people hate surcharges, that's for sure. We know there are some costs involved in transactions, whether it be through small business being charged for use of the facilities. And so, I guess part of the work the RBA's doing is to try and understand what that looks like. If you banned all surcharges, what are the costs and who would carry those costs?
SOLLY: It does happen in other parts of the world, though, doesn't it? We're a bit of an outlier on this. I think in many other parts of the world, there are no surcharges on credit or debit cards.
GALLAGHER: That's exactly why the RBA is doing this work. They'll get to the bottom of it. We'll get the best information and then we are prepared to act. As we said, I think the debit card one is easy, we've got to understand a little bit more about how it works with credit cards. There's a huge variance, as people would know. You can go into some shops and not get a surcharge, you go into others and there are surcharges. Some people tell you, some merchants don't. I mean, there's a whole - yeah, it's a bit of a minefield. And that's why I think the work the RBA's doing will give us the best information and then we can take some decisions from there. But I totally accept surcharges really, really annoy people. They're hidden costs in many ways, and they add to people's pressures. So, we want to definitely respond to that.
SOLLY: Just on the text line somebody says, when credit cards were introduced, it was law that the customer was not to pay fees. So, obviously well overdue for a bit of a looksie on this. Just one other quick issue, Peter Dutton yesterday saying if he was to be elected, he would come down hard on banks who are not providing loans, et cetera, to businesses on environmental grounds, et cetera et cetera. He thinks that the banks have become too woke, I think was a word he used, goodness knows why they keep using that word. But I mean, look, do the banks need to be given a bit of a kick up the boogaloo here, Senator, and is Peter Dutton on the right track here?
GALLAGHER: I mean, Peter Dutton goes around starting off these little fires where he chooses, because he's got nothing else to say and he certainly doesn't want to talk about his nuclear reactor system that he wants to bring in. We've seen it when he carried on about everyone boycotting Woolworths, you know, he intervenes when he chooses to get a headline.
SOLLY: But maybe this is an issue here, if the banks have been selective -
GALLAGHER: Well, the banks are commercial enterprises and it's a very good and important part of our economy that we have banks that are making decisions in the best interests of their operating. And banks will make those decisions based on commercial grounds and that should continue. There is a reason why we have a banking system. It's strong, it's profitable, it's well-led, it's got us through - you know, we haven't had the problems that we've had in other parts of the world with the Australian banking system. We've had the Royal Commission. That's had a very close look at how the banks operate. But I would think a would-be Prime Minister telling the banks who they should lend to is a bit of a problem.
SOLLY: Senator Katy Gallagher, appreciate your time this morning, thank you.
GALLAGHER: Thanks very much, Ross.
