Minister for Finance, Minister for Women, Minister for the Public Service
ROSS SOLLY, HOST: Let's chat now to Senator Katy Gallagher, who will be delivering the State of the Public Service address this morning at the National Press Club. Senator Gallagher, good morning to you.
SENATOR THE HON KATY GALLAGHER, MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE: Good morning, Ross.
SOLLY: God, listeners are unkind sometimes, aren't they?
GALLAGHER: You've got to have a thick skin, you've got to have a thick skin.
SOLLY: Yes, you do.
GALLAGHER: For feedback. I get a lot of it as well, if it's any consolation.
SOLLY: Indeed. Yeah, I know. Sometimes you wonder, why do we bother to get up in the morning? Look, how are we tracking? I know that the latest figures show that we're relying a lot less on consultants now than we were when you took over, and that there a lot more public servants. But I don't necessarily know that our public servants are happier now than they once were. What's your take on where we're at?
GALLAGHER: Overall, I think definitely heading in the right direction. I mean, the surveys of public servants, in terms of happiness or enjoyment at work, are heading in the right direction, and are actually the highest they've been for a long time. I think a lot of that is to do with settling some of those long-term wages and conditions issues that we had under the former government and we've settled those. So, it's certainly headed in the right direction, but I think the point I'm trying to make today is there's a lot more to do and I guess the contest that's going to happen over the next 6 months really is going to be a moment for the APS about whether we continue going in the direction I'm trying to head, or we revert back to the situation we encountered when we came to government, that's really the contest.
SOLLY: Well, this is certainly going to be the election topic, isn't it? Because already we know that Peter Dutton and Jane Hume and others have already indicated that they think that the public service now has become bloated. There are many more public servants than there were. And they're also arguing that they've not shown that they are actually more efficient, the more public servants you get doesn't equal better efficiency. Now, I've been - it's an interesting argument to put out there, isn't it?
GALLAGHER: Well, what they're saying is simply wrong. So, they've said they'll cut 36,000 jobs from Canberra. And you know, it's always a bit easy to have a crack at Canberra and it's politically easy to run a campaign like that, but the reality is three quarters of the jobs - the new jobs that we've put in place, really to deal with the fact that the APS was under-resourced and reliant on contractors and consultants - are outside of Canberra. But in terms of service standards, I mean I can give you so many examples, like environmental approvals have halved in time. Veterans' Affairs could take anywhere from 100 days to two years to get your claim actually allocated, they're now being allocated in 14 days. There's a whole list. In NDIS, in Centrelink, in Medicare processing.
SOLLY: But a lot of punters, Katy Gallagher, they'll go, actually yeah look I had to spend 45 minutes waiting on hold to speak to a department. That's what they remember. That's when they go, where's all this increased efficiency happening.
GALLAGHER: And you know, we are seeing that change and improve considerably. Like, the last data I saw from Medicare and Centrelink times on phones was significantly improved from what we inherited. Look, there are improvements. I'm not pretending anything's perfect. I wouldn't do so. But I guess, this idea that you can just slash the public service by 20 per cent, deliver the services and not effect service outcomes and not employ a whole range of people off the books - which is what happened last time - is just laughable. It won't happen.
SOLLY: Yeah. But the consultancy industry is very strong here in the ACT, and there are a lot of very good consultants who have very good experience. Why should we be so opposed, Katy Gallagher, if they can provide decent services? Why would we be so opposed and block that passage?
GALLAGHER: Well, we're not doing that. We're simply rebalancing it. I am a big supporter of the consultancy industry but it should be utilised for the expertise and skills that they provide, it should not be a proxy for a permanent public service job. And that's what we saw, where we saw consultants and contractors, labour hire, being essentially off the books so the former government could say, oh, we've kept ASL numbers low. But they were actually just employing them in a different range of ways and they were more expensive. So, we have converted a lot of those permanent public service jobs into public servants doing that work and we've said things like, we don't think consultants should write cabinet submissions, we don't think they should sit on the executive management committee of a department, which is what was happening before. But there absolutely is a role for consultants. And in my discussions with consultants in Canberra, Ross, they are keen to make sure that their role is well understood and well defined and not a proxy for public servant work.
SOLLY: This texter maybe is at the nub of one of the issues, Katy Gallagher, which you're battling - this texter says, the Australian Public Service still can beat private sector wages and conditions for technology and other high-skilled professionals, but to get a promotion or a good wage, they have to leave the APS. And that's the issue isn't it, that quite often, if you want to make good money, you do have to go outside, set up your own consultancy or go and work for a consulting firm?
GALLAGHER: Yeah sure, and I personally think the APS has to be better, it has to be easier for people to come in and out of the public service, because I think that's actually a benefit for the public service in the long run, that we're attracting people either back in or from the private sector with that experience. One of the things I always say when I'm talking about the public service is, I don't believe - yes, wages are one of the factors for working in the public service, and conditions, and we have to compete in some way with the private sector, we have to be comparable and in some ways if we can, lead on conditions. But people work for the public service for a lot of reasons and if it's only pay that motivates you, you will probably want to work where you can earn more money. But I don't believe that that is the sole reason people want to work in the APS. You do so for public service, you do so because of the interesting work that the private sector doesn't do. But yeah, you need to be paid properly.
SOLLY: 7:44 am on ABC Canberra Breakfast, you're with Ross Solly, my guest is Senator Katy Gallagher. Just on the satisfaction rate, we also saw reports recently that showed in some departments, Katy Gallagher, there is still a lot of unhappiness. And a lot of it is based around the whole Robodebt scandal. Do you think that the leadership is right now in the APS? Are the right people leading the departments to ensure that the departments can go forward and it can be a happy place to work and a place where people want to work?
GALLAGHER: Yes, I do. I think a lot of change has happened. And we have put in place, I think, new ways of ensuring that the leadership is the best it can be. For example, making SES responsible for their behaviour, not only their work output. So, trying to drive a more positive culture and being transparent about it. So, publishing those surveys in full for all departments so that people can see what's going on. I accept that there are areas where we need to continue to focus and improve, and those secretaries know that and are responsible for driving the improvement in those departments. But these are, in some areas and in some departments, long-standing problems which need an intense focus. And one of my views is the APS should lead on culture, we should lead on senior management and behaviour, and we should lead on accountability and transparency in that regard.
SOLLY: We should, but are we?
GALLAGHER: Well, I think it's certainly improving, Ross. But again, I'm not going to sit here and say that the job is done and that's part of the point I'm trying to make today. We're trying to push in the right direction. Improve this important institution in our democracy. And I don't try to be political in these speeches, but I think a lot of that is under threat and I have to call that out.
SOLLY: It would go some of the way to healing some of the wounds once the Robodebt sealed section is unsealed. I asked Patrick Gorman about this a couple of weeks ago. He wasn't able to tell us when it might happen. Is it going to happen soon and how important is it, Katy Gallagher, that we do unseal that section of the Robodebt inquiry?
GALLAGHER: I think in terms of - I think the fact that it's sealed has made it very interesting and in the interest of transparency and trying to deal with the harm and the pain that has been caused by Robodebt, I think it is important that it is provided. I think there are some issues that we need to deal with, including the fact that the National Anti-Corruption Commission is having a look further at the Robodebt inquiry. That means we have to consider those impacts as well. But I think the intention, certainly from the government's point of view, is to publish that chapter when we're able to do so.
SOLLY: Alright, one other issue before I let you go. The ABS figures that came out yesterday have shown the deepest hit to Australia's living standards on record. Jim Chalmers, your colleague, is saying business needs to do more. At the moment the economy is basically being propped up by government spending. It's not an ideal situation to go into an election year is it, Katy Gallagher?
GALLAGHER: There's no doubt it's really difficult economic circumstances and people are feeling that in their households. You know, that's a combination of inflation and rising interest rates and some of the global uncertainty we're seeing. But I don't think the National Accounts surprised anyone in the sense that we're seeing in the day-to-day economy, just how slow and weak the economy is. And that's a good reason for public demand, or public spending, to support the economy and support jobs. But I think the point Jim was making was, that is not a long-term solution and you know, it's the private sector that is the big and significant player in the economy. And, you know, as times improve, you would expect to see that almost reverse, that the public spending isn't -
SOLLY: Do you think they're dragging their feet a little bit at the moment, they're happy to sit back and let you - why is business not contributing more?
GALLAGHER: Well, I don't think that's the point Jim was making. I think he was saying that I don't think that it's a surprise when you see a weak economy, you see governments filling the space. But you know, certainly our view has been that that's got to be quality spending. We're looking at the timing of that spending and also that it doesn't add to the inflation challenge. But you would expect, as we come out of this, that that would change. You wouldn't see such levels of public spending, but you would see the private sector return. So, I don't think he was pointing the figure, it's more an explanation of what's happening at the moment in the economy.
SOLLY: What he hopes will unfold. Katy Gallagher, good to speak with you this morning. Thank you for your time.
GALLAGHER: Thanks, Ross.
