Minister for Finance, Minister for Women, Minister for the Public Service, Minister for Government Services
DAVID SPEERS, HOST: Katy Gallagher, welcome to the program.
SENATOR THE HON KATY GALLAGHER, MINISTER FOR FINANCE: Thanks, David.
SPEERS: So, were you also shocked at Donald Trump's proposal of a US-owned Gaza?
GALLAGHER: Well, I think President Trump has made it clear that he's going to do things differently. So, we're seeing some of that play out, you know, post him coming to office again. But I think really, there's been statements made since that initial remark too, which were from the administration. So, I think the Prime Minister was right to confirm what our position is, which is a two-state solution that supports the rights of the Palestinian people, a state of Palestine and the state of the Israel to coexist peacefully.
SPEERS: Does that mean you don't support the idea of an American-owned Gaza?
GALLAGHER: Well, we've made clear what our position is. A two-state solution and that the conflict in the Middle East is resolved as soon as possible and peacefully and in accordance with international law.
SPEERS: But surely you're able to say whether Australia thinks it's okay for another country to take control of Gaza?
GALLAGHER: Well, I think again, the Prime Minister has been clear, a two-state solution and that all matters are dealt with in accordance with international law. That is Australia's position. It's a bipartisan position, I think. And that's the one that we had last week, before the statements from President Trump, and it's the one that we hold now.
SPEERS: And this wouldn't be consistent with international law?
GALLAGHER: Well, if you're talking forced displacement, David, that is not consistent with international law. So, our position is and has been very clear and consistent and remains consistent and it's a bipartisan position in this country. I understand Peter Dutton has confirmed his commitment to a two-state solution as well.
SPEERS: Is there any fear of upsetting Donald Trump in how the Government here reacts to these sorts of things?
GALLAGHER: Well, we'll always make our decisions based on Australia's national interest. Obviously, it's an important, strategic - America's an important, strategic partner. Our closest ally. Has been for decades through different administrations. We will make decisions in our national interest and we will navigate the relationship and President Trump's presidency in accordance with those principles.
SPEERS: Just another thing on what President Trump has done, as you mention, there's been a lot going on in the short time he's been back in the White House. His executive order ending diversity targets, it's now seen Google, Meta, Accenture drop some of their DEI policies and gender quotas, for example. They're worried about losing contracts with the US government, but it does affect their global operations including here in Australia. As Minister for Women, does that concern you?
GALLAGHER: Well, we've got arrangements in law, the Workplace Gender Equality Agency has requirements for businesses to report against certain targets and measures. So, that will continue. And I note all of those companies that have operations in Australia have confirmed, of course, that they would continue to operate with Australian law, which does allow for reporting and for progress to be made, particularly around issues of gender equality. And as an employer, I guess for us in the public service, you know we have measures where we want to see more First Nations people attracted and retained in the public service, more people with disability, from culturally and linguistically diverse backgrounds and make sure women are getting fair opportunities, because we think that's a way to be a good employer. And we're all searching for talent and we know that people - the services we provide as a public service are stronger based on the makeup of your own workforce.
SPEERS: Let's turn to the announcement today on women's health. There are a range of different measures there. Why have you chosen the measures that you have?
GALLAGHER: Well, Ged Kearney, who's been leading this work for us, has been consulting for the last couple of years. We've done quite a bit of work to unpick areas where women are either paying too much or not getting the healthcare support that they need. And it's come down, quite obviously for women across the country, the use of contraception, going through different stages of your life including menopause, that these are areas that either haven't been addressed for decades or haven't been met appropriately through the Medicare system. So, we've landed the hospital deal, keep investing in the public health system, we've got a lot of initiatives about strengthening Medicare and this builds on that.
SPEERS: I think when you say they haven't been dealt with for decades, a lot of women would agree and say, hallelujah. Why has it taken that long?
GALLAGHER: Unclear. I mean I guess there are - if we're talking about the oral contraceptive, it's been on the PBS, but not the newer oral contraceptives, which often have less side effects and work better for some women. So, there are options on the PBS, but probably not the best options. So, that's why we are making sure that we're dealing with that, adding those new drugs onto the PBS. Look, it'll give women more choice and cheaper access to these kinds of products.
SPEERS: The Opposition's immediately backed this this morning. Do you welcome that?
GALLAGHER: Yes, I do. We know that Peter Dutton wanders around saying he's going to cut a whole range of things, it's clear that he sees a lot of our investments in Medicare as wasteful spending, but these are really good investments into women's health. And it'll make a difference for millions of women across the country, including women who are going through menopause who really have felt left behind by the health system and hopefully these new measures will address all of those issues.
SPEERS: The ABC's reported yes, women want to see these sorts of measures, but also when it comes to IUD procedures in particular, they want more help with the pain management as well, that that can be very expensive. Obviously, consultations are expensive as well. Is there still a case for more to be done?
GALLAGHER: I think when you look at health, there's always more to be done. We know that particularly Medicare after a decade of Liberal neglect is really heaving under pressure, and we're trying to fix that in the first couple of years of this Government. There's definitely more to do. But you know, longer Medicare rebates, better training for GPs about IUD insertions and removals and those pelvic pain clinics are part of that, and they're all initiatives that we've got up and running and are investing in in this first term.
SPEERS: This is in part in response to a Senate report last year that called for action on some of these things. There's another Senate report that you've had for more than 500 days now when it comes to abortions, or access to abortion services. It did recommend expanding access in federally funded public hospitals. Will we see the Government respond to that before the election?
GALLAGHER: Yes, so those reports, both of the reports, the one into reproductive choice and also into perimenopause and menopause, we will respond to this week. Part of us finalising our response has been linked, obviously, with us making some decisions about the investments we want to put in women's health. On the issue of termination of pregnancy, one of the big changes we've made is greater access to medical terminations and we've seen very good - we've seen improvements and increases in the access. So, better access to medical terminations. We've also done that, as I referred to earlier, that big $1.7 billion investment into public hospitals. They're run by the states and territories, so you know, that really is a decision for them about access to surgical terminations in those facilities.
SPEERS: Okay, but you did indicate there that there will be more from the Government this week on access to termination services in public hospitals?
GALLAGHER: Not beyond what I've just said to you. We've made the investment into public hospitals. So, they're funded to do the job that they need to do and those state and territory governments make decisions there. Our area of responsibility is to make sure in terms of medical terminations that the right support is there, and as I said, in the last few years, we have seen improved access to medical terminations.
SPEERS: But this Senate report did say, all public hospitals within Australia should be equipped to provide surgical pregnancy terminations or affordable pathways to other local providers. Will that happen?
GALLAGHER: Well, that is a matter for the state and territory governments. We don't tell them what services that they do or don't provide.
SPEERS: It used to be Labor policy that you would.
GALLAGHER: There was a policy in 2019. Our policy now is to fund the public hospitals properly, state and territory governments make those decisions about what services are offered. Here in the ACT for example, surgical terminations are free and provided and in most jurisdictions, you'll see access to medical terminations, including support services for women that want to access them.
SPEERS: Now, you're also the Minister for Finance. You have to make all of this add up, ultimately. So, today's announcement, $573 million, is that a four-year figure or a one-year figure?
GALLAGHER: It's a four-year figure, so it would be over the forward estimates.
SPEERS: And then there's the $1.7 billion announced the other day on hospitals -
GALLAGHER: That's a one-year agreement.
SPEERS: Okay. So, look, this is on top of I think $17 billion in new spending that the Prime Minister rolled out over January while travelling around. Are there any offsets or savings to pay for all of this?
GALLAGHER: Well, we're working on the Budget now. We've had savings with every budget, every budget update, every MYEFO. So, you'll see that continued approach. We've found $92 billion in savings across the budgets that we've been responsible for. And I think that shows you how serious we are about it. But it also means we've got the Budget in better shape, debt's lower and interest payments on the debts are lower so that we can invest in areas like women's health, that's the whole point of finding savings.
SPEERS: But the spending generally has continued to increase. Your latest budget forecast was for spending to hit 27.2 per cent of GDP next financial year, the highest level in 40 years outside of the pandemic. Will it now be even higher based on the spending that we've seen over the last month or two?
GALLAGHER: Well, if we're talking about some of the announcements, they've been factored into our thinking and published through the Mid-Year Economic Update that we released in December -
SPEERS: But there's been more since then -
GALLAGHER: So again, we are finding, where we can find savings, that is offsetting new spending. But I would also say, David, the Budget is under significant pressure. And it's in those areas we've talked about before. So, NDIS, Defence, hospitals, aged care and government debt. They are the 5 big areas of pressure. We've made good reforms on NDIS and aged care, so that'll help over the medium term. We'll see those impacts improve the Budget. And areas like Defence, where we've had to make additional investments in our national interest -
SPEERS: Peter Dutton is concerned about the growth in the public service. He says it should not rise about 200,000. I think your Budget says it will get to 209,000 this financial year. Is there a point at which it is too big? Is there an upper limit that you would suggest for the public service?
GALLAGHER: Well, I think the public service is well resourced now to do its job. It's taken us about two and a half years to get it to that point. But Peter Dutton's saying he wants to sack 36,000 staff from the public service, and that would have us return to Robodebt, it would have us return to contractors and consultants running the show, and it would mean poorer services for people. Because the areas we've invested in are those frontline services and we're making a difference. Like, veterans, for example, waiting over a year to even have their case considered, all of that - the backlog of 42,000 veterans claims, all of that is allocated now. And it happened because we put people in the right jobs to do the work.
SPEERS: Is 209,000 enough? 220,000, 250,000 would be too many?
GALLAGHER: Well, I've said I think we've resourced it properly now. I think we have got -
SPEERS: So, it doesn't need to grow beyond 209,000?
GALLAGHER: I don't believe so. And I've looked at this pretty carefully. Again, I've come into a public service that was weak, under-resourced and had a lot of problems and it wasn't delivering services for people, which is the whole purpose of having a public service. And so, we've gone systematically through each department. Now, Peter Dutton likes to stomp around the country and say he'll cut 36,000 jobs from Canberra. The reality is if he does that, it's people out in the regions and other places right around the country who will suffer.
SPEERS: Sounds like you are planning to hand down a budget in just over six weeks?
GALLAGHER: Well, we're doing a lot of work, David. A lot of ERC meetings at the moment.
SPEERS: The usual schedule you'd be doing at this point?
GALLAGHER: Well, it's a March budget, so we're in the thick of it. There's a lot of ERC meetings. Jim and I have worked over the summer, the Treasurer and I, to make sure that we're getting the job done, but as you would expect, it's a pretty busy time for the Treasurer and Finance Minister right now.
SPEERS: It sounds like it. Look, just a couple of other issues. Labor shifted position during the week on mandatory sentencing, under pressure of course from Peter Dutton. The Labor party's platform makes it very clear that mandatory sentencing, quote, does not reduce crime but does undermine the independence of the judiciary, leads to unjust outcomes and is often discriminatory in practice. Why do you disagree with your own party platform?
GALLAGHER: Well, we don't apologise for trying to get the best and strongest laws through the Parliament with the most support possible. I mean, we've led the way on the hate crimes legislation, remember we had Peter Dutton running around trying to weaken those in relation to 18C and also voted against our doxxing legislation, anti-doxxing legislation. So, we wanted this legislation to come, to be as strong as possible and have as much support as possible across the Parliament. I think that's what the country expects and needs and we're responding to issues, you know, horrific and awful rise of anti-Semitism across the country that I have never witnessed in my lifetime and I think it's appropriate that the Parliament responds to that.
SPEERS: But is there any evidence that mandatory sentencing works?
GALLAGHER: Well, I think you have to govern for right here, right now.
SPEERS: What does that mean?
GALLAGHER: Well, what we're seeing right now is the rise of anti-Semitism. This is not Australia, this is not the Australia I know -
SPEERS: And will mandatory sentencing work?
GALLAGHER: I think sending a very strong deterrence to anyone who's contemplating it, thinking about it, taking part in it is absolutely appropriate.
SPEERS: So, you think it'll work?
GALLAGHER: Well, the laws are there now, David. The Parliament's had its say, and it passed, and indeed it passed with tripartisan support, with the Greens backing it in through the Senate on Thursday.
SPEERS: Just a final one, the State byelections I mentioned in Victoria yesterday, I want to ask you about Werribee in particular. I know it's a state byelection, but Labor did cop a big hit with its primary vote down 16.7 per cent. What message do you take from that?
GALLAGHER: Well, you know, obviously we - politicians, we have a look at what happens. State byelection, I mean I don't think it changes anything for us federally. We're focused on cost-of-living, making sure we're building a better future for Australia and I think the contest will be really clear at the election. It'll be plans to invest in Medicare, our plans to do that and to support Australians through the cost-of-living pressures, or the other side, which wants to cut $350 billion, slash the public service, build nuclear reactors all around the country some time in the future. That'll be a real choice for people.
SPEERS: Just to pick up on what you said, this doesn't change anything for Labor?
GALLAGHER: Well, because our plans will remain cost-of-living, providing help where we can, getting on with doing the things we need to do in Medicare and in infrastructure and working with state and territory governments, and we'll continue to sell that message and invest in those services and I think the contrast between what we are doing under Prime Minister Albanese's leadership and what Peter Dutton is threatening to do with cuts will make a real choice for people at the election.
SPEERS: Katy Gallagher, thanks for joining us.
GALLAGHER: Thanks very much, David.
