'What Happens Next?': Women's Safety and Gender Equality in Victorian Election

"Hear me now": 2021 Australian of the Year Grace Tame's acceptance speech was a rally cry that reverberated across the nation. Thousands of women marched for safety in their homes, schools, workplaces and public spaces.

The recent federal election clearly demonstrated that what matters to women voters should not be ignored.

In a live, bonus episode of Monash University's What Happens Next? podcast, a panel of experts unpacks the pressing election issues in Victoria for women's safety and gender equality in the wake of COVID-19.

Today's guests are Professor Jacqui True, Director of Monash's Centre for Gender, Peace and Security; Dr Siru Tan, a research fellow at the Monash University Gender and Family Violence Prevention Centre; and Australian political scientist Dr Blair Williams.

"I think that the people are powerful, and the people should use their power to make that change. And yes, as you said, it's kind of slow. It doesn't happen in an instant, but it does create for that bigger and lasting change."

Dr Blair Williams

This episode of What Happens Next? is an abridged version of a panel recorded during Social Sciences Week 2022, and a special, one-part episode. We'll be back next week with an all-new topic.

If you're enjoying the show, don't forget to subscribe on your favourite podcast app, and rate or review What Happens Next? to help listeners like yourself discover it.

Transcript

[Music]

Dr Susan Carland: Welcome back to What Happens Next?, the podcast that examines some of the biggest challenges facing our world and asks the experts, what will happen if we don't change? And what can we do to create a better future?

I'm Dr Susan Carland. Keep listening to find out what happens next.

The 2022 federal election demonstrated that what matters to women voters shouldn't be ignored with the Victorian election upon us, what have the major parties pledged for gender?

Welcome to a special episode of What Happens Next?. This is a recording of a live panel conversation as part of Monash University's Social Sciences Week.

[Applause]

Dr Susan Carland: Hello, everyone. I am absolutely delighted to welcome you to the "Hear her Roar" event as part of Monash University's Social Sciences Week series.

We are here today to discuss what Victorian political parties can do to end gender-based violence and progress gender equality, and the commitments that they would like to see - that our expert panel would maybe like to see - but also, perhaps, suggest to them, in the lead up to the Victorian election.

So sharing their insights today are Dr Blair Williams, lecturer in Australian politics; Professor Jacqui True, the director of the Monash Gender Peace and Security Centre, and a professor of International Relations in the Faculty of Arts here at Monash; and Dr Siru Tan who is post-doctoral research fellow with the Monash Gender and Family Violence Prevention Centre. Ladies, welcome.

Blair Williams: Morning.

Dr Susan Carland: So my question to kick off: The federal election did show us this year that what matters to women voters should matter to political parties. So what commitments to improve the lives of women would you like to see from political parties in the upcoming Victorian election?

Jacqui, I might start with you.

Jacqui True: I'd like to see the Victorian government develop and commit to a wellbeing budget where they commit to analysing and all new spending. And that all new spending should actually advance gender equality but also other goals too, related to that. I think that could be shared across the whole state. So things like reducing poverty, reducing family violence, addressing mental health crises, and so on.

So I think that wellbeing budget would kind of build on the commitment of the government to gender-responsive budgeting, which is, again, looking at the impact of spending, all spending, on diverse groups of men and women in the state. But I think a wellbeing budget would take it to a new level and enable us to think about core common goals - not just simply growing the economy, but actually improving the social outcomes and benefits for all.

Dr Susan Carland: Can I just clarify, so with your wellbeing budget suggestion, do you mean that the whole budget would always have gender equality as something that informs every policy, or every spending the government has? Or is it a separate thing that certain things would feed into?

Jacqui True: So I think first of all I should say that the idea of the wellbeing budget is a policy innovation that comes from New Zealand. But it's also one that's been taken up in other countries: Scotland, Finland… There's a bit of a movement of countries led by quite passionate women leaders to promote this wellbeing economics.

So what it does, and what New Zealand has done, has said all new spending, in order to be approved by the cabinet, it must meet these criteria. So it must advance gender equality, it must reduce poverty. It must also - for New Zealand, it's child poverty targets, it also relates to mental health targets as well.

So I'd like to see the federal government… Jim Chalmers has actually mentioned that the federal government may be looking at a wellbeing budget, but Victoria should be the first mover.

Dr Susan Carland: Siru, what would you like to see from political parties?

Siru Tan: What the pandemic has also shown us is that women undertake much of the care responsibility in the home. And that's also where I'd like to see commitment from the government to recognising and to addressing. And to, I think, really… It's thinking about, "What are the measures that are necessary in order to help reduce or help alleviate some of the burdens that women carry?", be it through better leave policies, or through investment in industries where we no longer can say, "Oh, women earn less, therefore they should stay at home and do all of this work."

I think, especially in the childcare industries and elder care industries, where we see women taking up much of these care responsibilities, I think we need to see a more well-structured - both in the immediate sort of response to the crisis that we are currently having, and in the longer term as well… Where we think about, "How can we have a structure in place that can allow women to go out and work without staying at home?", because the structures are in place to allow them to do that. And that could include more investment in childcare facilities and elder care facilities that are affordable for women.

Because I think a lot of the cases now, women are staying at home or that they're working primarily just to cover childcare expenses, and that's just not a good option for them. It can be extended. It definitely needs to be extended to elderly care, where over the last few years we have seen it just spiral, and the risk that puts women in, both at home and outside the home. So I think that's what I would like to see. [Laughter]

Dr Susan Carland: Blair, what would you like to see?

Blair Williams: The aged care stuff, childcare stuff, very much agree, but also expand that to disability care as well because that is an extremely underfunded area, and it's something that I think gets forgotten a little bit, and has really been struggling over the last few years because of COVID. So it'd be good to see not only the workers get cheaper education and training, but also better pay, obviously.

And personally, maybe - I don't know, it is pretty unfeasible - but I would love to see a more nationalised aged care, childcare and disability care model, rather than having a lot of privatisation, which only results in worse outcomes for workers and for those who need this care.

I also think it's important to look at the mass rise in incarceration, incarceration of women, that we've seen over the last few years. So I think it's more than doubled since the mid-2010s. And as we know, a lot of women who are in prison are there usually because they've experienced some kind of trauma. Things like education, social housing, better welfare rates, all those things work to minimise that. So I guess I just believe in a bit less of a police state, because I know Victoria has a few challenges there.

Dr Susan Carland: We've seen a lot of discussions about women's safety in a whole host of areas, the home, on the streets, at their workplaces, everywhere. And recent studies have found that one in two Australian women will experience sexual harassment, one in three has experienced physical abuse, and one in five has experienced sexual abuse.

What action and investment is required from governments to address this national emergency?

Siru, I'll ask you first.

Siru Tan: Beyond a policing state. It's not just about, okay, we have these laws and these policies. We need to think about, can women actually access them? Is it actually feasible? Is it actually practical for women to access those things?

And that decision of whether to approach authorities or not - it's more than that immediate crisis or incident, that incident of abuse or harassment. They need to think about their economic security. They need to think about, for migrant and refugee women, they need to think about visa security. Is it going to impact on their residency? Is it going to impact on their right to a job here? And all of that, if that's not resolved, no matter how many laws or policies that we may have, the impact is going to be arguably minimal.

Dr Susan Carland: Blair, what would you like to see?

Blair Williams: I guess I'm just so overwhelmed with how much housing has increased and the unaffordability of that.

And when you are looking at intimate partner violence, for example, I mean how can you leave? How can you even think of leaving when you can't find a rental? When you can't afford one, let alone find one, or vice-versa, I think that really troubles the situation. It becomes impossible.

So I think to empower women, to decrease violence as well, not only do we actually obviously change cultural norms and the way we think about women - as part of a large society and part of Victoria as well - but we also need to increase women's economic security, so jobs and education like we've been saying, as well as the access to housing. I mean I guess it's the Maslow hierarchy of needs. You need to address those baseline things, and that will have a flow-on effect into those other issues.

Dr Susan Carland: Jacqui, how would you like to see the government try to address these staggering rates of harassment and abuse of women? Jacqui True: We need to be much more focused on prevention of gender-based violence and violence against women -

Dr Susan Carland: Mm.

Jacqui True: - and not just in the emergency room, responding.

And I think one of the ways to do that is to make that connection that you both already made to economic security and economic inequality. Because obviously the gender power imbalance is one of the major drivers that really enables and empowers some men to lash out or to abuse women in various different ways.

So I think that there has to be some room for more regulation in that area to kind of directly tackle the gender imbalances, as well, indirectly tackle gender imbalances in the workforce in order to address some of those direct impacts in terms of abuse and harassment. So I think that's really important.

And maybe it relates to the earlier points about mainstreaming not just gender equality across all policy areas, but mainstreaming the prevention of violence and abuse across all policy areas, and requiring some responsibilities there. I think this is going to be very important because, as Siru said, in this sort of recovery from COVID, we're actually seeing all of the gender economic inequalities be exacerbated.

Dr Susan Carland: What is your advice for non-researchers and non-politicians to influence law reform on domestic violence and gender-based violence? So, for the average punter out there.

Jacqui True: Well, don't think that all the ideas for law reform and policy change come from politicians - they don't. Politicians basically pick up the ideas from others, especially from advocacy coalitions and groups in communities that are pushing certain kinds of solutions. And I think researchers obviously play a role in those coalitions as well.

So I think my best advice would be, if there's an issue that you are passionate about, then I think you need to join up with others and try to identify the group that is also advocating for that issue, and be part of that group and bring your skills to that group, and the networks that you have, and the communities that you belong to. Enable their voices to be part of that solution.

So I do think that grassroots community initiatives can make a big difference. I think we've seen that in the recent federal election with the election of so many independent candidates who've been supported by their communities.

And I think the reforms that we probably will start to see in the next year or two, these are reforms that have been part of social movements and advocacy coalitions for at least two or three decades.

Dr Susan Carland: I think maybe it was you that said, Siru, that not everything needs to be policy. What are things that we can be doing to influence the community? What advice would you give for the average person that just wants to improve things in this area?

Siru Tan: I think it's interesting to think about law reform, because often I think in Criminology 101, what the question would be: Is it the public that influences law reform, or is it law that influences public norms?

And I think often, when we think about some things, for example, the one thing that comes to mind is the same-sex marriage, for example. It's not actually law reform that pushed a cultural change in norms, it was, in fact, the other way around. And this is where I think the average person has a lot of power.

And I think also, sort of building on that, it's even not just politicians, but as researchers, we are entirely… we're very much dependent on the public and on industry. So I think in your everyday… I definitely echo what Jacqui has said about your everyday practice, and you, perhaps, standing up to your family when someone says something that's a bit out of line, saying, "That's not quite right. This is what I've read."

Sort of doing that in your everyday actually has an impact. And that is, I think, the sort of everyday, minor things, small things that gradually then leads up to change.

Blair Williams: I think grassroots organisation is so crucial. I mean any gains, really, that we've won have been grassroots-based. That's pushing policy, that's pushing politicians. I wish politicians bloody acted on their own! No way! [Laughter]

A lot of the time it's organisation. We saw it with the March of Justice, for example. I was there, it was fantastic, helped organise it. It was a fantastic day. But then afterwards you're like, "Oh, Where'd that go?" But then you see it come back before the election and women are like, "I have not forgotten my anger. I'm still angry."

And I think you see a lot of that coming from the community and coming from ordinary people every day. And it's not just women who are there, or who think this stuff.

But I guess finding that solidarity, finding those people that you could talk about this stuff with, and educating others that don't know much about it. So I think educating your friends, your family, that is really important that you can do every day, based on the stuff that you've read based on the academic stuff that we get out in the media, or… I think it all relates with each other to create powerful movements.

But yeah, I mean, you look at gender equality policies over the years and it's always been grassroots feminist movements pushing that. For example, women's refuges didn't exist until grassroots feminists created in the '70s. A lot of the stuff we have now are due to unions, or feminist movements, or queer movements, like you were saying with marriage equality.

I think that the people are powerful, and the people should use their power to make that change. And yes, as you said, it's kind of slow. It doesn't happen in an instant, but it does create for that bigger and lasting change. Because it's not just top-down politicians telling us how to do, or law reforms telling us how to do, but it's changing the cultural norms of our society.

Dr Susan Carland: In terms of increasing male representation in female-dominated industries, what checks and balances are needed to ensure they don't then dominate the upper levels of these industries? So if we, like you suggested, "Let's get more men into early childhood education", how do we then stop them just becoming the CEOs of those companies and the women still being down the bottom?

[Laughter]

Jacqui True: Yeah, I was going to say that, that's a really fascinating comment, because what's so surprising is when, just take for example, education at all levels, we see, despite the fact that it's 80 per cent female dominated, the leaders, we see, the majority of them are men. So I think it's a problem that we have.

So maybe no one measure is sufficient, right? I think that we do need to promote a pipeline of young women leaders, diverse young women leaders. And that should be really important in every sector, in every organisation, to sort of counteract. And also our expectations in the community should matter, too. How we perceive and support women leaders, and diverse women leaders, is really important. And who we vote for is important, as well.

Dr Susan Carland: Do either of you have any recommendations for, how can we get men into these female dominated industries, but then stop just the pipeline of them being shunted to the top?

Blair Williams: There are two interesting things about this. One is the glass escalator. So this is what the situation is: It's the glass escalator. Kind of like the glass ceiling for women, that's this invisible barrier. The glass escalator is where men get risen to the top, they go into female industries, and they get on this glass escalator and they just go into those leadership positions. Or even just better paid positions, which is -

Dr Susan Carland: I've never heard that expression. That's a great one! Glass escalator, nice.

Blair Williams: Because it's a trend, it's a systemic thing. It's not just Australia. This is being seen in many countries over the world.

And the second thing I find interesting is that when an industry becomes more female-dominated, it loses its respect and it is less paid. It's paid less well. So I think we're kind of seeing that with academia a little bit as well, compared to the "prestige" it had back in the day, now it's being criticised and less paid.

I guess I mean we need to try and combat the idea that a female-dominated industry is worth less, because that is just ridiculous. And we need to change cultural norms so that men can see themselves doing these kinds of roles and they don't get shamed out of it, like women get shamed out of joining male-dominated industries.

And we need to make it more… I guess, improve the working conditions. And that's just not for men, that's for everyone in those industries. But I think that will also encourage more diverse people entering it.

Dr Susan Carland: Alright, last question for this amazing panel. Who should we be approaching to try to change family law when there's allegedly corruption in the very institutions that are meant to represent and protect domestic violence victims? Should these people be approaching the attorney general? Is it the government? What do we do?

Siru Tan: This is such a good question because I've been sitting on it for the last couple of years with all the scandals and all that, and I've been asking, I'm just like, "Who can we trust -"

Dr Susan Carland: Yeah.

Siru Tan: "- when the very people that are meant to protect our interests cannot be trusted to do so?"

Dr Susan Carland: I think it is a really good question because it can… For people watching from the outside, they can think, "Well, what do we do? How are we supposed to enact change when it feels like the very people who are there to make this change happen are deeply invested in keeping it the same?"

Siru Tan: I know.

Dr Susan Carland: Is there a way around it?

Siru Tan: I think this is definitely a question that's beyond Victoria. But I think there can be steps taken within Victoria. This is such a political question, I would say. [Laughter]

Dr Susan Carland: Yeah.

Siru Tan: Because I think the steps to it… The anti-corruption commission, I think, it's definitely a positive step forward to have an external body that sits outside of the government to be overseeing what's happening there, and not allowing, for example, a person in power to say... "Oh, you know…" to make sure that person is not guilty when corruption is so obvious to all of us.

And I think Victoria has the capacity to do so because… I mean, to say that Victoria is free of corruption would be a very big claim. But having an anti-corruption body would be a very good start, I'd say. And investigating... In a way, again, I think there are limits to what these steps could do, but at the same time it does flag to the people that we are serious about this. It's not just lip service. That's such a difficult question, such a...

Jacqui True: Wouldn't we also just recommend to this person to go to their local member of parliament and representative, and actually bring their concerns about the family law system to them?

Dr Susan Carland: Mm.

Jacqui True: Because if your political representatives don't know about the corruption and the problems, they can't actually raise those in the broader legislature, or they can't actually tackle them.

So you have to use those mechanisms that we have in a democracy to have your voice heard. And again, I think yours is just one voice, but if you go through your representative, you may find that there are others who have similar concerns. And you may find, also, a group which you can be part of, which can bring those broader concerns to those who represent us.

Dr Susan Carland: I think also, I wonder if we could consider using the media to help us in those regards going outside that system?

And one thing that has been positive to see is, I think, obviously there's problems in the media, but there are certain sections of the media that seem very committed to making sure gender-based violence is absolutely part of the national conversation, and calling people to be aware of it, and calling people in power to account for it. So we do still have outside groups that will hold corrupt governments to account that I think we could use to our advantage.

Blair Williams: I think we need to radically reform the system and that needs… I'm not a legal person, but they need to listen to the feminist legal academics in this.

I mean, whether we can do this or not, I think it's more of a choice, or the will, but it's something that definitely needs to happen because we are seeing horrific instances in the family law courts, whether it's children not having agency of their own lives and being forced to live with their abusers, or women who have their own violence used against them to show that they're an unfit parent. Horrific, horrific stories, time and time again. So I think the courts need to be reformed in itself.

And I think as you said, the media are doing some fantastic things. So I know a lot about this and those… the cases that we're seeing because the media has covered this. I think the ABC recently did a really good series on this, and I think we need to see more of that. More highlighting what is actually happening, and I think that can help hold things to account to have the impetus for change.

Dr Susan Carland: Alright, well, we are out of time, so a big thank you to our panellists for sharing their insights with us today. What an amazing bunch of women!

[Applause]

Dr Susan Carland: Maybe we'll see you again next year for SSW.

[Music]

Dr Susan Carland: Let's hope these issues and more are of high priority for the major parties in the future. Thanks to our guests, Dr Blair Williams, Dr Siru Tan, and Professor Jacqui True. You can find out more information on this topic, and our guests, in the show notes.

That's it for this episode, we'll see you next week as we unpack a brand-new topic on What Happens Next?.

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